M
MikeCarra
Guest
Yup. All arguments based on "awe" of the design will have to wind up with special pleading for God. The first uncaused cause.
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Plus, I think we have another case here of special pleading for god to be an exception to the rule, in an attempt to avoid infinite regression.
I.e., god is irreducibly complex by definition, one would think, assuming a god exists.
So, then, god could not have just existed, he must have been created - by an even more complex god.
And using the same logic this creator would have had in turn to have been created - by an even more complex god.
As infinitum.
Prove it.
You can't.
If you could you would win a Nobel Prize.
In the meantime naturalism is, as always, the default position.
.Prove it.
You can't.
If you could you would win a Nobel Prize.
In the meantime naturalism is, as always, the default position.
Except for people who just believe stuff and are just too ignorant of the facts to understand stuff.
Like, e.g., Australian Aborigines.
And many others.
FYI, I hate to burst your bubble, but even if naturalism is the "default position" as you call it, in no way does that imply or necessitate atheism as being the "default" position.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/
The Workhorse of the Cell
Move along.. Nothing to see that needed to be intelligently designed.
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You have a point about people who know Him are unable to provide "Spiritual evidence and proof" to Naturalist, proof that God is and that there is Power above the natural.
However, even with this inability to provide proof only the Naturalists have this lack of proof. They are the ones with the real problem. True followers of Him on High don't have the problem of no proof. Nor do that HAVE TO prove He is.
People who have turned to Him and found Him have been given firsthand proof from Him, through His working, even when He reveals Himself to them through His Spirit, such as through the Baptism of the Spirit, even being born again through the work of the Spirit within, the circumcising of the heart through the Spirit. People who have met Him have been changed through His work of the Spirit. Realities Naturalists know not of by true Spiritual Dynamics.
In return people who remain Naturalists have no proof nor evidence revealed to them. They are in the dark about Him on High. They have not been touched by nor made aware of Him on High. Naturalist can only have dust-level comprehension of existence. The Spiritual Realm they are ignorant of.
So from Him on High you are the empty handed, but I am not. This is the reality you cannot set aside, though you try since you state there is no proof - the problem you and other Naturalists have, including Spiritual Poverty.
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All down to random chance.
Not even remotely.
The universe works on cause and effect - nothing escapes this, so there is no randomness. In fact randomness is just the atheist version of a "god of the gaps" - no evidence for it, but they claim it's existence to fill the spaces in their knowledge.
no. cause and effect is merely a property of the macroscopic universe as we observe it. Towards quantum scales it deteriorates towards mere probabilities of possible outcomes.Not even remotely.
The universe works on cause and effect - nothing escapes this, so there is no randomness.
Because the finest scientific, human minds have still proved incapable of even remotely approaching the creation - even given all the necessary materials - of something as extraordinarily complex as a single cell of the simplest bacterium.
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You have a point about people who know Him are unable to provide "Spiritual evidence and proof" to Naturalist, proof that God is and that there is Power above the natural.
However, even with this inability to provide proof only the Naturalists have this lack of proof. They are the ones with the real problem. True followers of Him on High don't have the problem of no proof. Nor do that HAVE TO prove He is.
People who have turned to Him and found Him have been given firsthand proof from Him, through His working, even when He reveals Himself to them through His Spirit, such as through the Baptism of the Spirit, even being born again through the work of the Spirit within, the circumcising of the heart through the Spirit. People who have met Him have been changed through His work of the Spirit. Realities Naturalists know not of by true Spiritual Dynamics.
In return people who remain Naturalists have no proof nor evidence revealed to them. They are in the dark about Him on High. They have not been touched by nor made aware of Him on High. Naturalist can only have dust-level comprehension of existence. The Spiritual Realm they are ignorant of.
So from Him on High you are the empty handed, but I am not. This is the reality you cannot set aside, though you try since you state there is no proof - the problem you and other Naturalists have, including Spiritual Poverty.
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You are correct in the sense that there is no randomness. This, science agrees with you as all causes and effects must follow the laws of physics. However you are mistaken when you claim that randomness is the atheist version of the "god of the gaps". Atheist scientists like all scientists know that randomness simply cannot be as I have stated above.Not even remotely.
The universe works on cause and effect - nothing escapes this, so there is no randomness. In fact randomness is just the atheist version of a "god of the gaps" - no evidence for it, but they claim it's existence to fill the spaces in their knowledge.
You are correct in the sense that there is no randomness. This, science agrees with you as all causes and effects must follow the laws of physics. However you are mistaken when you claim that randomness is the atheist version of the "god of the gaps". Atheist scientists like all scientists know that randomness simply cannot be as I have stated above.
No he didn't. He just gave us a lot of god talk. That is never helpful.
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Talk, mere words, that is all it will be until you meet Him.
So far you have trashed Him and those who have met Him.
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At least the Greek Orthodox church forbids proselytising. The church believes that one should join of his free will without any influence nor the fear of eternal damnation. In fact it says that one need not necessarily go to hell if one does not believe but it is better to believe. The important thing here is that one leads his life without stealing, lying, hurting people, etc.So the "christian theory of effective proselytizing" is: If a lot of god talk just doesn't work - then the only thing to do is to just slather on MORE god talk.
The old "more is better" ploy.
Sorry, dude. Been there. Had that. Got the T-shirt.
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