All actions of God in OT is Yeshua

[danny ski]

You could look into Alan Segal, a rabbinical scholar who wrote the book "Two Powers in Heaven" and Dr. Michael Heisner, a Chrisitan scholar who also writes about how OT writings support that Jesus is and has been the king of the Jews. They go into the idea much more thoroughly.
http://twopowersinheaven.com/

I'm familiar with Dr. Segal's work. To put it charitably, it's thin.

 

[gadar perets]

Time frame allows the difference.

Both occurred relatively close in time. How much time could have elapsed between Mt 18:20 and Mt 24:36? If he emptied himself of his deity to become a man, then he could not be omniscient, omnipresent, and/or omnipotent.

 

[visionary]

Both occurred relatively close in time. How much time could have elapsed between Mt 18:20 and Mt 24:36? If he emptied himself of his deity to become a man, then he could not be omniscient, omnipresent, and/or omnipotent.

God is outside of time, God went inside the time frame earth in the flesh... If He emptied Himself, then He was omniscient, omnipresent, and omniprotent, which He picked up again after His earthly flesh mission.

 

[gadar perets]

God is outside of time, God went inside the time frame earth in the flesh... If He emptied Himself, then He was omniscient, omnipresent, and omniprotent, which He picked up again after His earthly flesh mission.

If you are correct, then in between his "emptying" and his "picking it up again," he was not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient. That was my original point. He was none of those things while in the flesh.

As for "God went inside the time frame earth in the flesh," that is not what the Word says.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God (Elohim/YHWH) was in Christ (Maschiach), reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
​

We are not told "God was Christ" or that "Elohim was Maschiach", but that He was in (greek - en) Maschiach. YHWH did not become a flesh and blood man who could die (He has inherent immortality), but He lived in a flesh and blood man through His indwelling Ruach HaKodesh.

 

[visionary]

If you are correct, then in between his "emptying" and his "picking it up again," he was not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient. That was my original point. He was none of those things while in the flesh.

As for "God went inside the time frame earth in the flesh," that is not what the Word says.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God (Elohim/YHWH) was in Christ (Maschiach), reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
​

We are not told "God was Christ" or that "Elohim was Maschiach", but that He was in (greek - en) Maschiach. YHWH did not become a flesh and blood man who could die (He has inherent immortality), but He lived in a flesh and blood man through His indwelling Ruach HaKodesh.

No argument there. ... the flesh was not omnipresent, omnipotent, or omniscient.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua was WORSHIPPED - Matthew 2:11, Matthew 9:12, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:52..

Since only God is to be worshipped - Matthew 4:10
...that means Yeshua is God.

Even angels WORSHIP Yeshua - Hebrews 1:6
Heaven falls down before the Lamb - Revelation 5:8
Every knee shall bow - Romans 14:11

 

[Peace Keeper]

I believe Yeshua, is Yahweh (God) made into flesh.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:1-14

Many things that happened in the Old Testament points to what Yeshua would do (become a sin offering to cleanse us from our sins completely). A lot of things in the Old Testament were purified with blood, which points to Yeshua because His blood is the only blood that truly purifies us from sin.

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua was WORSHIPPED - Matthew 2:11, Matthew 9:12, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:52..

Since only God is to be worshipped - Matthew 4:10
...that means Yeshua is God.

Even angels WORSHIP Yeshua - Hebrews 1:6
Heaven falls down before the Lamb - Revelation 5:8
Every knee shall bow - Romans 14:11

The Greek word for "worship" in Matthew 4:10 is from "proskuneo". A form of "proskuneo" was also used in Revelation 3:9:

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

Does this mean the recipient of that "worship" is "God" as well?

Here is the definition of "proskuneo" from Thayer’s Lexicon:

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

3a1) to the Jewish high priests

3a2) to God

3a3) to Christ

3a4) to heavenly beings

3a5) to demons​

Notice the bold recipients of "worship" include men who are not "God". It is not wrong to "worship" Yeshua out of reverence/respect.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua calls Himself the FIRST AND THE LAST - Revelation 1:11,17.
Only GOD is the FIRST AND THE LAST - Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 48:12

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua calls Himself the FIRST AND THE LAST - Revelation 1:11,17.
Only GOD is the FIRST AND THE LAST - Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 48:12

The Father and the Son share some titles. Each is the first and last of his peculiar, unique kind. YHWH is unique in that He is the only being that was not created and Yeshua is unique in that he is the only being ever to be directly begotten by the Father (John 1:14). (Adam was created, all others were begotten by men).

Titles that YHWH and Yeshua have in common do not supply a firm foundation for a "Oneness" doctrine. If that were true, Cyrus, the king of Persia, would have been the supposed pre-existent Son since both are called "Mashiach." In Isiah 45:1a it reads, "Thus saith YHWH to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him;" The Hebrew for "anointed" is the same word that was translated "Messiah" in Daniel 9:25,26 and "anointed" in Psalm 2:2.

 

[visionary]

The Father and the Son share some titles. Each is the first and last of his peculiar, unique kind. YHWH is unique in that He is the only being that was not created and Yeshua is unique in that he is the only being ever to be directly begotten by the Father (John 1:14). (Adam was created, all others were begotten by men).

Titles that YHWH and Yeshua have in common do not supply a firm foundation for a "Oneness" doctrine. If that were true, Cyrus, the king of Persia, would have been the supposed pre-existent Son since both are called "Mashiach." In Isiah 45:1a it reads, "Thus saith YHWH to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him;" The Hebrew for "anointed" is the same word that was translated "Messiah" in Daniel 9:25,26 and "anointed" in Psalm 2:2.

Meet God..Face to face... one on one.. sup with Him... I know from the abundance of explanations given, the mind has locked in this theology. BUT ...Reality is mind blowing when it come to meeting with God and to understand, truly understand, the indwelling of the Son in the Father and the indwelling of the Father in the Son..

John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[gadar perets]

Meet God..Face to face... one on one.. sup with Him... I know from the abundance of explanations given, the mind has locked in this theology. BUT ...Reality is mind blowing when it come to meeting with God and to understand, truly understand, the indwelling of the Son in the Father and the indwelling of the Father in the Son..

John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Interesting. I can say the same thing right back to you. You think I need understanding and I think you need understanding. What matters is, which view aligns with Scripture. I know mine does and yours doesn't. All yours does is cause tremendous confusion and disharmony of Scripture. Case in point, John 17:21 which you quoted.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

This verse teaches us that Yeshua's desire is that his disciple be one in the Father and the Son. It is the same oneness that he and his Father share (John 17:22). If he and his Father are one in the sense of being the same being, then Yeshua's wants his disciples to be the same being. Nonsense. It is not a oneness of being, but a oneness or unity of belief, purpose, fellowship, etc.

 

[Norbert L]

Interesting. I can say the same thing right back to you. You think I need understanding and I think you need understanding. What matters is, which view aligns with Scripture. I know mine does and yours doesn't. All yours does is cause tremendous confusion and disharmony of Scripture. Case in point, John 17:21 which you quoted.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

This verse teaches us that Yeshua's desire is that his disciple be one in the Father and the Son. It is the same oneness that he and his Father share (John 17:22). If he and his Father are one in the sense of being the same being, then Yeshua's wants his disciples to be the same being. Nonsense. It is not a oneness of being, but a oneness or unity of belief, purpose, fellowship, etc.

I was enjoying the discussion until you said, "What matters is, which view aligns with Scripture. I know mine does and yours doesn't. All yours does is cause tremendous confusion and disharmony of Scripture."

It is CF members who have views about the scriptures and it is us who have the potential to cause tremendous confusion and harmony between ourselves.

 

[gadar perets]

I was enjoying the discussion until you said, "What matters is, which view aligns with Scripture. I know mine does and yours doesn't. All yours does is cause tremendous confusion and disharmony of Scripture."

It is CF members who have views about the scriptures and it is us who have the potential to cause tremendous confusion and harmony between ourselves.

I agree, but the disharmony is caused by not agreeing on what the Scriptures say. Either Yeshua is our Heavenly Father or he is not. Either he is the only true Elohim or he is not.

 

[visionary]

Interesting. I can say the same thing right back to you. You think I need understanding and I think you need understanding. What matters is, which view aligns with Scripture. I know mine does and yours doesn't. All yours does is cause tremendous confusion and disharmony of Scripture. Case in point, John 17:21 which you quoted.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

This verse teaches us that Yeshua's desire is that his disciple be one in the Father and the Son. It is the same oneness that he and his Father share (John 17:22). If he and his Father are one in the sense of being the same being, then Yeshua's wants his disciples to be the same being. Nonsense. It is not a oneness of being, but a oneness or unity of belief, purpose, fellowship, etc.

I "know" Him not from theology but from experience in His Presence.

 

[Norbert L]

I agree, but the disharmony is caused by not agreeing on what the Scriptures say. Either Yeshua is our Heavenly Father or he is not. Either he is the only true Elohim or he is not.

What the scriptures say? The scriptures transmit ideas, events and spoken dialogues. They are a record between the very real heavenly individuals and the generations of humanity. None of us here have an arm strong enough to resurrect past generations of mankind and interview them to question and say "what do you mean when you said...?". Nor can we ascend to heaven and likewise inquire of those who reside there.

I believe the task of harmonizing the topic of "All actions of God in OT is Yeshua" for everyone else who believes He is their Lord is beyond your reach. I certainly 100% know that it is beyond my reach because I used to be like this type of person:
"No doubt you are the people,
and wisdom will die with you." (Job 12:2)

 

[gadar perets]

So what you are saying is scripture is worthless because we can't know what the authors meant?

 

[pinacled]

Opening and shutting doors.

Rev. 3;7
Isaiah 22;22
Isaiah 45;1
1 Cor. 16;9
2 Cor. 2;12

 

[Norbert L]

So what you are saying is scripture is worthless because we can't know what the authors meant?

No. The task of Philippians 2:12 is my own, I can't work out your salvation because you don't believe _____ doctrine. I can try and offer my ideas but we may not necessarily agree on everything. With the exceptions of the coming in the flesh, the empty tomb and bodily resurrection of Yeshua, Philippians 2:11 and 1 John 2:4. Those are non negotiable.

 

[pinacled]

So what you are saying is scripture is worthless because we can't know what the authors meant?

Since you have so much stamina to burn.

Will you answer a question for me?

Why is Dan no longer around?