Alert! God Will commonly not being done

[John Mullally]

It is a poor argument to say that X happened because it was God's Will, or that Y did not happen because it was not God's Will. The proof lies below:

1. The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not His Will. Note that "be" is in the present tense.
   
2. God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.
3. Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

 

[timothyu]

1. Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

Yeah, us putting our will first and self ahead of others. The default setting of flesh and creation where everything is food for something else;.

 

[honey badger]

Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’

 

[Dave L]

It is poor argument to say that X happened because it was God's Will, or that Y did not happen because it was not God's Will. The proof lies below:

1. The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not His Will.
   
2. God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.
3. Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

Things are just as God planned.

 

[Tolworth John]

It is poor argument to say that X happened because it was God's Will, or that Y did not happen because it was not God's Will. The proof lies below:

1. The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not His Will.
   
2. God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.
3. Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

Or you are mistaken and what we see happening today is God's will.

You are making a basic mistake, thinking what you want is what God wants.

 

[John Mullally]

Or you are mistaken and what we see happening today is God's will.

You are making a basic mistake, thinking what you want is what God wants.

You are reading in something I did not say. I did not say that I can just assume that everything that I will ever want is God's Will for me. But this elementary passage in the Lord's prayer does provide light into what is His Will.

 

[John Mullally]

Things are just as God planned.

If everything is according to plan, then I can infer that you are saying that God has planned for things to be done that are not His Will.

 

[John Mullally]

Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’

That scripture is not an argument against what I stated. That does nor rule out that for a time, things will be done that are not His Will.

 

[Dave L]

If everything is according to plan, then I can infer that you are saying that God has planned for things to be done that are not His Will.

It's God's will to harden hearts and cause people to sin as with Pharaoh and others. He caused cannibalism in the OT as judgment. Certainly not his moral will, but his will for sinners.

 

[timothyu]

But this elementary passage in the Lord's prayer does provide light into what is His Will.

Jesus made it clear in His two commandments what God wants and what his will is... that we put His will ahead of our own, which is love all as self, that is, put others before self. We don't need to go around playing God or pretending to represent Him. He told us what we need to do and that is for each other, not for self.

 

[honey badger]

That scripture is not an argument against what I stated. That does nor rule out that for a time, things will be done that are not His Will.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

 

[Dave L]

Jesus made it clear in His two commandments what God wants and what his will is... that we put His will ahead of our own, which is love all as self, that is, put others before self. We don't need to go around playing God or pretending to represent Him. He told us what we need to do and that is for each other, not for self.

You need to differentiate between God's written moral code (will) and his will to increase sin and punishment in evildoers. This is especially noticeable in the Old Testament if you spend some time with it.

 

[timothyu]

You need to differentiate between God's written moral code (will) and his will to increase sin and punishment in evildoers. This is especially noticeable in the Old Testament if you spend some time with it.

Punishment was often a result of the failure to do God's will in serving others by their retaliation fuelled by division, much in the way we see on the streets of America today.

 

[Dave L]

Punishment was often a result of the failure to do God's will in serving others by their retaliation fuelled by division, much in the way we see on the streets of America today.

But God caused them to sin more so he could increase their punishment as viewed in the hardening of hearts.

 

[timothyu]

But God caused them to sin more so he could increase their punishment as viewed in the hardening of hearts.

Was not His creation of the Tempter enough?

 

[John Mullally]

It's God's will to harden hearts and cause people to sin as with Pharaoh and others. He caused cannibalism in the OT as judgment. Certainly not his moral will, but his will for sinners.

But God caused them to sin more so he could increase their punishment as viewed in the hardening of hearts.

My main gripe with Calvanism is the pervasive fatalism and that I cannot find a practical application to "Calvanist Election". What kind of parent would you be if you constantly told your kid that you are just as God made you where instead you could be giving instruction and love? There are so many treasures in the New Testament that are left largely untapped. For example, Jesus gave us John 14:13 or Mark 11:23-24 for a good reason - but many won't touch them because they are afraid of being persecuted.

 

[John Mullally]

It's God's will to harden hearts and cause people to sin as with Pharaoh and others. He caused cannibalism in the OT as judgment. Certainly not his moral will, but his will for sinners.

God can turn bad situations around and create good where evil was intended - but He is not an agent in creating wrong doing itself.

James 1:13-14 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

 

[JM]

My main gripe with Calvanism is the pervasive fatalism and that I cannot find a practical application to "Calvanist Election".

You do not understand fatalism or scripture. Sophocles used fate and chance interchangeably, is that what you mean? Or do you men the worldview where there is no god and things are just destined to happen?

Vincent Cheung:

"By some definitions, the terms “determinism” and “fatalism” are similar.

For example, some English dictionaries would define these terms in ways that fail to make a clear distinction between them. Merriam-Webster is too ambiguous for our purpose, and Webster’s New World Thesaurus considers the two synonymous. Certainly, even those who affirm “soft” determinism and accuse me of teaching fatalism would not want to accept these ambiguous definitions, since then they would become “soft fatalists” at best.

The definitions in theological and philosophical literature might be more precise.

By “fatalism,” I refer to the teaching that all events are predetermined by impersonal forces regardless of means, so that no matter what a person does, the same outcome will result.

By “determinism,” I am specifically referring to theological or divine determinism — I am referring to the teaching that the personal God of the Bible has intelligently and immutably predetermined all events, including all human thoughts, decisions, and actions, and that by predetermining both the ends and the means to those ends."

and

"What are people going to accuse me of now? I can’t be accused of teaching fatalism, since I am saying that fatalism is too weak! But slanderers will think of something."

What kind of parent would you be if you constantly told your kid that you are just as God made you where instead you could be giving instruction and love? There are so many treasures in the New Testament that are left largely untapped. For example, Jesus gave us John 14:13 or Mark 11:23-24 for a good reason - but many won't touch them because they are afraid of being persecuted.

What kind of parent would love their child but not override their free choice to save them when headed to hell? That's a wicked, devilish doctrine. I guess you're assuming all people are God's children, but that' isn't scripturally true, it's an Arminian dream. Would God love, but not save...and love and send to hell?

I made this video years ago for people that teach the humanistic gospel of freewill works religion.

 

[JM]

It is a poor argument to say that X happened because it was God's Will, or that Y did not happen because it was not God's Will. The proof lies below:

1. The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not His Will.

...

God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.

You are assuming a full preterist perspective where the consummation of God's Kingdom has been fulfilled. Noticed how the "on earth as it is in heaven" is linked with "thy Kingdom."

Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

The "other factor" is sin. The better question would be, what is the Kingdom and how does sin relate to the current age? The position I'm taking is the historic Christian position expressed in the Nicene Creed as, "We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen."

 

[John Mullally]

You made an interesting tie in from "thy kingdom" to "on earth as it is in heaven".

You do not understand fatalism or scripture. Sophocles used fate and chance interchangeably, is that what you mean? Or do you men the worldview where there is no god and things are just destined to happen?

Vincent Cheung:

"By some definitions, the terms “determinism” and “fatalism” are similar.

For example, some English dictionaries would define these terms in ways that fail to make a clear distinction between them. Merriam-Webster is too ambiguous for our purpose, and Webster’s New World Thesaurus considers the two synonymous. Certainly, even those who affirm “soft” determinism and accuse me of teaching fatalism would not want to accept these ambiguous definitions, since then they would become “soft fatalists” at best.

The definitions in theological and philosophical literature might be more precise.

By “fatalism,” I refer to the teaching that all events are predetermined by impersonal forces regardless of means, so that no matter what a person does, the same outcome will result.

By “determinism,” I am specifically referring to theological or divine determinism — I am referring to the teaching that the personal God of the Bible has intelligently and immutably predetermined all events, including all human thoughts, decisions, and actions, and that by predetermining both the ends and the means to those ends."

and

"What are people going to accuse me of now? I can’t be accused of teaching fatalism, since I am saying that fatalism is too weak! But slanderers will think of something."



What kind of parent would love their child but not override their free choice to save them when headed to hell? That's a wicked, devilish doctrine. I guess you're assuming all people are God's children, but that' isn't scripturally true, it's an Arminian dream. Would God love, but not save...and love and send to hell?

I made this video years ago for people that teach the humanistic gospel of freewill works religion.

Jesus says the Kingdom is here in Luke 17:20 even though it is not until much later in Rev 11:15 where it is said "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ.". I don't think that there is a tie in here because "be" is in the current tense and because Jesus always considered his audience - which in this case are his disciples who had a 3rd grade education.

You say my "other factor" is sin. Yes, I thought if I could get people to my #3, they would all come up with that conclusion on their own.