Alcohol

[PaladinValer]

It's not an argument. He's just saying be careful.

Right from the beginning, he creates a Straw Man, then from it, he creates a Slippery Slope and Appeal to Consequences not from the actual question but from his own significantly augmented question attributed to the original.

It is poor argumentation, and when it is combined with a supposedly Christian reply, it is no longer orthodox but pietism

Please do these three things:

1. Learn about logic
2. Avoid Pietism
3. Avoid John Piper

 

[TheDag]

Alcoholic wine is essential for communion. Using grape juice is an abomination. So- on that front- alcohol and faith are meant to go together.

Regarding drinking any alcohol- I'm not seeing the problem for a Christian. Know your limits and drink in moderation and you'll be fine. This is an American Evangelical problem inherited from Prohibition (i.e. specifically it's usually only those who go to churches that don't use wine in communion or believe in the real presence who have this hang up- and the worst are those who used to drink in excess before they were 'saved').

drinking alcohol =/= alcoholism

mental note bever suggest to an alcoholic that they attend a orthodox church. it is always a problem when a church insists on being unbiblical and not make allowances for the few. That simply is not God's way. God makes exceptions for the few. We see that in several stories in the bible. Guess scripture must be wrong! Without love we are just clanging cymbal.

We take the scriptures quite seriously when it comes to the elements used in communion. It says wine- we use wine. Then again- we believe in the real presence too- just as per scripture. The eucharist is extremely serious to us. People donate money to buy the wine used for communion in my parish. People also bake the phosphora (communion bread) every week that goes in the chalice (and how that is baked and what can be used is also very strict).

Let me put it to you this way: This idea of having non-alcoholic wine for communion wasn't even a discussion or question that occurred before the advent of the Temperance Movement in the United States starting back in the mid-1800s. Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the process to stop fermentation in 1869. That's how new this issue is. Wine is fermented. Every time the scriptures mention wine it means there's alcohol in it. Can't get around that.

ETA: Let me turn that on you. What if there was a grape juice shortage and only wine could be found? I guess there would be a lot of teetotaling churches that would stop having communion? In Iran- Christians have been sentenced to 80 lashes recently (iirc) for using wine for communion. Said punishment will likely kill them- but they realize the importance of using the proper elements in celebration of the eucharist- and did it anyway despite the dangers. It's that big of a deal.

We see in the bible that the method of eucharist is changed due to problems. So it is not unbiblical to change what is used to address problems. Having been at a church where one bloke simply couldn't have communion because they would not offer an alternative is disgusting and keeping people from God. That is shameful action by any church. See he didn't get drunk at communion but it would cause him to want to go out and drink after church and due to his alcoholism he had a tough time controlling. We are not meant to be stumbling blocks for people so when he asked for help so he could participate and not have this problem it was totally unbiblical to refuse to make allowances.

 

[Krillin]

Right from the beginning, he creates a Straw Man, then from it, he creates a Slippery Slope and Appeal to Consequences not from the actual question but from his own significantly augmented question attributed to the original.

It is poor argumentation, and when it is combined with a supposedly Christian reply, it is no longer orthodox but pietism

Please do these three things:

1. Learn about logic
2. Avoid Pietism
3. Avoid John Piper

1. I'm trying. But logic is simply the process in which we come to an answer, despite whether the answer is correct or not.
2. I'm not sure what that is in depth, but I will most definitely research that.
3. His sermons have done me a lot of good, as they have for many.

This thread is specifically about alcohol. Let's not stray from that. This isn't helping anyone else reading this. PM is always a possibility remember.

 

[Andres88]

mental note bever suggest to an alcoholic that they attend a orthodox church. it is always a problem when a church insists on being unbiblical and not make allowances for the few. That simply is not God's way. God makes exceptions for the few. We see that in several stories in the bible. Guess scripture must be wrong! Without love we are just clanging cymbal.


We see in the bible that the method of eucharist is changed due to problems. So it is not unbiblical to change what is used to address problems. Having been at a church where one bloke simply couldn't have communion because they would not offer an alternative is disgusting and keeping people from God. That is shameful action by any church. See he didn't get drunk at communion but it would cause him to want to go out and drink after church and due to his alcoholism he had a tough time controlling. We are not meant to be stumbling blocks for people so when he asked for help so he could participate and not have this problem it was totally unbiblical to refuse to make allowances.

I wonder if the Scriptures fell down from heaven just as they are.

Anyway: using wine with alcohol for Communion should be the obvious thing to do. Unfortunately, as it has been pointed out, the use of "wine" without alcohol is precisely a matter of private interpretation of the revealed truths.

As for a Christian that drinks alcohol, basically know your limits, and preferably only do it on weekends, moderately, and better with someone that will be able to help you being moderate about your intake. Drinking alcohol per se, is not a sin.

 

[PaladinValer]

1. I'm trying. But logic is simply the process in which we come to an answer, despite whether the answer is correct or not.

It is the process by which we come to reasonable solutions; the true one being sound. All sound logic is valid but not all valid logic is sound.

All animals with wings can fly
Penguins have wings
Therefore, penguins can fly.

That is a logical argument, because it does correctly apply the rules of logic (Penguins are a type of animal and have wings, so if we take the premise and apply this fact, we do arrive at a viable conclusion), yet the argument is unsound and is false because it is based on a false premise.

All humans are mortal
Socrates is a human
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Here, we have another similar argument but this time, the premise is true, and since it follows the rules of logic, the argument is not only valid but sound.

2. I'm not sure what that is in depth, but I will most definitely research that.

In the end, it is, essentially, the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy. It is legalism, and John Piper is a legalist.

3. His sermons have done me a lot of good, as they have for many.

Fallacy of Appealing to the Masses. Popularity doesn't dictate truth.

This thread is specifically about alcohol. Let's not stray from that. This isn't helping anyone else reading this. PM is always a possibility remember.

It shows the fallacy of John Piper's argument which has sadly been used, sometimes unintentionally by misguided acts of kindness, to teach legalism and clearly unbiblical or anti-Christian ideas. And it is the sort of argument that those Christians who wrongly think alcohol is a sin use quite commonly. The problem is, their premises, as I illustrated with the Greek and with history (no pasteurization means no actual grape juice!), are false and therefore, their arguments are not sound even when they may be valid.

 

[Krillin]

It is the process by which we come to reasonable solutions; the true one being sound. All sound logic is valid but not all valid logic is sound.

All animals with wings can fly
Penguins have wings
Therefore, penguins can fly.

That is a logical argument, because it does correctly apply the rules of logic (Penguins are a type of animal and have wings, so if we take the premise and apply this fact, we do arrive at a viable conclusion), yet the argument is unsound and is false because it is based on a false premise.

All humans are mortal
Socrates is a human
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Here, we have another similar argument but this time, the premise is true, and since it follows the rules of logic, the argument is not only valid but sound.



In the end, it is, essentially, the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy. It is legalism, and John Piper is a legalist.



Fallacy of Appealing to the Masses. Popularity doesn't dictate truth.



It shows the fallacy of John Piper's argument which has sadly been used, sometimes unintentionally by misguided acts of kindness, to teach legalism and clearly unbiblical or anti-Christian ideas. And it is the sort of argument that those Christians who wrongly think alcohol is a sin use quite commonly. The problem is, their premises, as I illustrated with the Greek and with history (no pasteurization means no actual grape juice!), are false and therefore, their arguments are not sound even when they may be valid.

Why do you treat everything someone says as an argument. I'm not claiming that because his preaching is popular then it is true. I am just saying that his teaching has really helped me in my walk with Christ, and that others can say the same. I'm sure you might make the same statement regarding communion with alcoholic wine (which I don't condemn in the slightest) in that it has done you good spiritually.

 

[seashale76]

@theDag: You said-

mental note bever suggest to an alcoholic that they attend a orthodox church. it is always a problem when a church insists on being unbiblical and not make allowances for the few. That simply is not God's way. God makes exceptions for the few. We see that in several stories in the bible. Guess scripture must be wrong! Without love we are just clanging cymbal.

I can't even take you seriously. Receiving bread dipped in watered wine from a spoon- which is literally the body and blood of Christ- is only going to help and not hinder an alcoholic. We even commune infants. The eucharist is the fountain of immortality and the medicine for what ails us. Those who partake literally have Christ in them.

The eucharist is serious. It isn't a joke that we change to suit ourselves. When you change things- it then ceases to be what it is- and just because you then claim it to be what you want doesn't make it so.

 

[Philpy1976]

The vicar in our church (C of E) is starting up a new type of meeting called "Table talk".
Those who wish to, will meet in a pub in town and discuss the bible and our own walks over a pint or two.

I assume some here will think such an idea is awful, I think it will be great

 

[PaladinValer]

Why do you treat everything someone says as an argument. I'm not claiming that because his preaching is popular then it is true. I am just saying that his teaching has really helped me in my walk with Christ, and that others can say the same. I'm sure you might make the same statement regarding communion with alcoholic wine (which I don't condemn in the slightest) in that it has done you good spiritually.

That's a bit defensive.

Instead of questioning why I am against his beliefs, perhaps instead, based on the fact that I was so easily able to squash his argument, the question should be "why do I use him as a source?"

You are not John Piper. You are not your beliefs. You are you. Do not internalize your beliefs as it is a very unhealthy way to live. Above all, internalizing other people is a major issue, so please avoid doing so at all costs.

Your argument is what is incorrect. The topic here is about alcohol and your evidence on that subject is very much part of that topic. Again, I strongly advise not just you but anyone to be very weary of internalizing beliefs as if they are a part of who you are, dear readers...and dear self as well; surely I need to remind myself of this once in a while too.

I can't even take you seriously. Receiving bread dipped in watered wine from a spoon- which is literally the body and blood of Christ- is only going to help and not hinder an alcoholic. We even commune infants. The eucharist is the fountain of immortality and the medicine for what ails us. Those who partake literally have Christ in them.

The eucharist is serious. It isn't a joke that we change to suit ourselves. When you change things- it then ceases to be what it is- and just because you then claim it to be what you want doesn't make it so

Well said. In the West, as I replied to Krillin earlier, we allow the use of must for those who are alcoholics, which has a suspended and very, very low amount of alcohol and typically those who receive the sacramental must intinct and barely get any of the must on the sacramental bread. And the must is watered too, which helps even more.

Either way, Jesus is fully Present in each species: the Host is Body and Blood and the contents of the Chalice is Body and Blood. A celiac receives the Body with the Chalice and an alcoholic receives the Blood with the Host.

 

[LilLamb219]

Just a friendly reminder that this forum is NOT a debate forum. If you wish to continue the debate, it needs to be taken elsewhere is a forum that allows it.

 

[shawnavery]

Just a friendly reminder that this forum is NOT a debate forum. If you wish to continue the debate, it needs to be taken elsewhere is a forum that allows it.

Huh? I've seen many debates on this forum. Oh you mean thread sorry just teasing

 

[Max Shade]

The vicar in our church (C of E) is starting up a new type of meeting called "Table talk".
Those who wish to, will meet in a pub in town and discuss the bible and our own walks over a pint or two.

I assume some here will think such an idea is awful, I think it will be great

There should not be a church in which that is not happening. Being a priest is a full time job . .. Sunday morning is short . . .

 

[aiki]

What are your thoughts on alcohol + faith?

Well, let's see...

1.) Getting drunk is a sin. No one gets drunk who has never consumed alcohol.
2.) Jesus is never recorded in Scripture as having imbibed alcohol. His enemies the Pharisees, though, accused him of being a wine-bibber. Mind you, they also accused him of being a glutton. What are the chances that they were speaking accurately about Jesus in either instance? Not very good, I think.
3.) Drinking alcohol entails taking the unnecessary risk of becoming drunk. For some, this risk may be negligible, but for others it may be very great and very devastating. It is hard to know until one drinks alcohol what the risk will be. It seems to me a wise person would be wish to be safe rather than sorry and avoid altogether such risk.
4.) Alcohol is a toxin to the body in whatever amounts it is consumed. As such, it causes damage to one's brain, liver, and kidneys. If consuming alcohol was necessary, one might justify the damage consuming it causes. Like chemotherapy. But drinking alcohol is not necessary - not even for communion.
5.) In Scripture, those devoted to the pursuit of holy, God-centered living - priests, judges, prophets and those under a nazarite vow - abstained from alcohol. Why?
6.) No where in Scripture is drinking alcohol forbidden. But the general tenor of Scripture, is, I think, against doing so. Drinking alcohol is not a sin; it is a spiritual weight, an unnecessary drag, upon one's walk with the Lord.
7.) The apostle Paul only urges Timothy to drink wine for medicinal purposes, not socially, or because "it tastes good."
8.) Those believers who do partake of alcohol often ungraciously flaunt doing so before their brothers and sisters in Christ who, seeking to honor God, do not. "Don't tread on my liberty" seems more important than "in honor preferring one another." The spirit of meekness and love is often discarded for a defensive "I'll do as I please and you can stuff it if you don't like it!" sort of attitude.

I have further thoughts, if you'd like to hear them.

Selah.

 

[parsley]

I just got through a long conversation on how to deal with relatives whose thought processes had changed over years of alcohol use. Many people suffer the consequences of too much alcohol.

I buy it on occasion, use it for cooking, sometimes use it to help me get to sleep. The Bible refers to its use when people are dying in pain. (And above, other practical uses.)

It helps economies, but cuts into family finances. Alcohol comes with a beautiful historical and cultural surrounding, an intellectual discerning of flavors and aging processes, a base of natural agriculture (viti-) and respect for pure handling.

But in the end, people justify misuse and seldom apologize for how it impacted the people they loved.

 

[TheDag]

@theDag: You said-

I can't even take you seriously. Receiving bread dipped in watered wine from a spoon- which is literally the body and blood of Christ- is only going to help and not hinder an alcoholic. We even commune infants. The eucharist is the fountain of immortality and the medicine for what ails us. Those who partake literally have Christ in them.

The eucharist is serious. It isn't a joke that we change to suit ourselves. When you change things- it then ceases to be what it is- and just because you then claim it to be what you want doesn't make it so.

that has not been the experience of all dry alcoholics. Not all places water down the wine either so it remains a problem. Not all churches dip the bread in the wine but rather drink it separately.
You also failed to address that the eucharist has changed from what it originally was. One only needs to read the bible. Does that mean what youdo now is no longer the eucharist or has the bible taught that if changes are needed that is ok and it can still be the eucharist. If we follow your logic then the only reasonable (sound) conclusion is that you do not partake of the eucharist but something else and calling it eucharist does not make it so. I also mentioned other scriptures which likewise apply. If you want to take scriptures that literally I just hope you do that with all scripture. I bet you don't because of the issues that would lead to.

 

[forGod1]

right? I mean, Jesus turned water into wine & yet when the devil was tempting Him, He didn't turn the rocks into bread. . . you'd have an easier time declaring bread "evil. . the devil is in love with bread" at least it would be more Biblically consistent, still an abuse of Scripture . . . but not as heinous as demonizing alcohol. Misuse or abuse of any of the gifts of God is wrong, the gifts are wonderful. Like sex inside a proper Christian marriage, wonderful, beautiful, healthy whereas the abuse of that gift is all manner of sin. Like good food, God gave us taste buds to enjoy & eyes to take pleasure in an artfully crafted meal . . . but gluttony is a sin as is neglecting the needy while having plenty. I just can't imagine any Biblical support for your statement. . .

you're right, max. his first miracle was turning water into wine.. i get that. but i see what it does to God's children.. and man, it's so scary.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Well... alcohol, money, drugs, smoking, sex, gambling...etc. These all can become addictions or problems in our lives. We have to know where that line is though of not turning it into a problem. Well some of those things listed though probably shouldn't be done at all to begin with.

Point is in terms of alcohol, its ok for people to have some. But people can take it to far. I very much see alcohol like porn. Once you get a taste of it, you maybe have a bit more then before. Then after awhile your so obsessed with it that you don't realize how much its playing a role in your life. And kicking the habit is very hard once your in to deep.

 

[Max Shade]

you're right, max. his first miracle was turning water into wine.. i get that. but i see what it does to God's children.. and man, it's so scary.

Well yeah, like anything gift of God that gets abused. Like sex outside of marriage, that has had scary consequences too. Food, man there is something a LOT of Americans abuse with scary consequences. Have you seen the obesity stats! And that while others go hungry. Disgraceful, horrific, a crime against humanity and a sin. Sex inside marriage, alcohol and food in moderation, all good.

 

[GenetoJean]

There is nothing wrong with alcohol itself. Dont drink it too much and religiously you are fine. If you are around a person who has problems with alcohol, you shouldnt drink it either.

 

[Lion King]

What are your thoughts on alcohol + faith? Thank you

Drinking alcohol is not a sin per se, it's the act of getting drunk that God frowns heavily upon (Ephesians 5:18, Proverbs 20:1). It's wise for Christians who lack self control to stay far away from anything alcoholic lest they become enslaved.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a church deciding to substitute alcoholic wine for non-alcoholic wine in the LORD's Supper for the sake of its members (eg alcoholics in recovery, children, pregnant women etc).