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Discussion and Debate
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Politics
American Politics
Alabama legislature moves to dispense with marriage licenses and solemnization
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<blockquote data-quote="tall73" data-source="post: 73981379" data-attributes="member: 125574"><p>I agree they can say whatever they want. But it is something most people have heard , so I was relating it because it is a description of what is happening.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Recognizing the right to do so blurs lines between the legal definition of marriage and the religious. Why do they provide the right for the clergy to do that? They allow clergy to perform a role that they in many cases do not allow just anyone else to perform. That is giving them authority to carry out that duty on behalf of the state, to meet the state's requirements.</p><p></p><p>This is where I think they have a problem. Recognizing a right of clergy makes no sense if it is the state who determines the requirements for a valid marriage. At that point what the state requires is of its own definition, though derived from earlier traditions. It is now codified into a civil contract.</p><p></p><p>To recognize the right of the clergy means the state is recognizing that the clergy member fulfills a role on behalf of the state in this instance. The clergy can solemnize. That is authority delegated to the clergy by the state to carry out a requirement of the state in question.</p><p></p><p>Now I am fine with the state allowing ministers to conduct any service they want, because to do otherwise would be to interfere with the free exercise thereof clause. But the minister conducting a religious ceremony is just that--a religious ceremony--unless the state also accepts that in fulfillment of its legal requirements. Then it becomes not only a religious ceremony but a part of entering into the civil contract as required by the state.</p><p></p><p>I think they should leave clergy out of it. Clergy do not need their permission to perform a religious duty. And they should not have any power beyond that of any other person in the entering into of a civil contract.</p><p></p><p>Let's take New Mexico as an example:</p><p></p><p><a href="https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/New-Mexico-Chapter-40-Article-1-Marriage-Licenses.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/New-Mexico-Chapter-40-Article-1-Marriage-Licenses.pdf</a></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #006600">40-1-1. [Marriage is civil contract requiring consent of parties.] <strong>Marriage is contemplated by the law as a civil contract</strong>, for which the consent of thecontracting parties, capable in law of contracting, is essential. History: Laws 1862-1863, p. 64; C.L. 1865, ch. 75, § 2; C.L. 1884, § 978; C.L. 1897, § 1415;Code 1915, § 3425; C.S. 1929, § 87-101; 1941 Comp., § 65-101; 1953 Comp., § 57-1-1.</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000">The state is not recognizing a religious definition of marriage but is defining it as a civil contract. There is no reason a minister would need to be involved. </span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">40-1-2. Marriages solemnized; ordained clergy or civil magistrates may solemnize. A.The civil contract of marriage is entered into when solemnized as provided in Chapter 40,Article 1 NMSA 1978. As used in Chapter 40, Article 1 NMSA 1978, "solemnize" means to join in marriage before witnesses by means of a ceremony. B.A person who is an ordained member of the clergy or who is an authorized representative of a federally recognized Indian nation, tribe or pueblo may solemnize the contract of marriage without regard to sect or rites and customs the person may practice. C.Active or retired judges, justices and magistrates of any of the courts established by the constitution of New Mexico, United States constitution, laws of the state or laws of the United States are civil magistrates having authority to solemnize contracts of marriage. Civil magistrates solemnizing contracts of marriage shall charge no fee therefor. </span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p>Now is this not spelling out a special role, authority given by the state, to meet the state's requirements, to ministers, Indian Nation representatives, or judges? It is.</p><p></p><p>And they generally have to sign off on the license as well.</p><p></p><p>This is not recognizing a right already inherent to religious bodies. This is recognizing a role they allow minsters to play in a civil contract. I am saying ministers should perform the religious ceremony and have nothing to do with the civil contract between the two parties.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But that is my point. Why do ministers have to be involved at all in a civil contract? Why does the state have to involve them? That is the decision of the state to do so, largely based on prior tradition since many were married in churches, so witnesses would be present. There is no inherent need for the minister to be involved in a civil contract. My understanding is that in some countries the marriage is handled by the state and a separate religious ceremony is conducted if desired, and the two have no particular relation. That is what I would like to see, so that the state has no role being played by the church, and therefore no requirements put on the clergy for said role.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Pastor Fred should have no role authorized by the state to help people enter into civil contracts in my view. The state chose to extend that authority to Pastor Fred. They did not need to.</p><p></p><p>Why should it be incumbent upon Pastor Fred to get involved in the process and obtain a certificate for a civil contract, and sign it, etc? Leave Fred alone. The state should conduct the contract between the two parties.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tall73, post: 73981379, member: 125574"] I agree they can say whatever they want. But it is something most people have heard , so I was relating it because it is a description of what is happening. Recognizing the right to do so blurs lines between the legal definition of marriage and the religious. Why do they provide the right for the clergy to do that? They allow clergy to perform a role that they in many cases do not allow just anyone else to perform. That is giving them authority to carry out that duty on behalf of the state, to meet the state's requirements. This is where I think they have a problem. Recognizing a right of clergy makes no sense if it is the state who determines the requirements for a valid marriage. At that point what the state requires is of its own definition, though derived from earlier traditions. It is now codified into a civil contract. To recognize the right of the clergy means the state is recognizing that the clergy member fulfills a role on behalf of the state in this instance. The clergy can solemnize. That is authority delegated to the clergy by the state to carry out a requirement of the state in question. Now I am fine with the state allowing ministers to conduct any service they want, because to do otherwise would be to interfere with the free exercise thereof clause. But the minister conducting a religious ceremony is just that--a religious ceremony--unless the state also accepts that in fulfillment of its legal requirements. Then it becomes not only a religious ceremony but a part of entering into the civil contract as required by the state. I think they should leave clergy out of it. Clergy do not need their permission to perform a religious duty. And they should not have any power beyond that of any other person in the entering into of a civil contract. Let's take New Mexico as an example: [URL]https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/New-Mexico-Chapter-40-Article-1-Marriage-Licenses.pdf[/URL] [COLOR=#006600]40-1-1. [Marriage is civil contract requiring consent of parties.] [B]Marriage is contemplated by the law as a civil contract[/B], for which the consent of thecontracting parties, capable in law of contracting, is essential. History: Laws 1862-1863, p. 64; C.L. 1865, ch. 75, § 2; C.L. 1884, § 978; C.L. 1897, § 1415;Code 1915, § 3425; C.S. 1929, § 87-101; 1941 Comp., § 65-101; 1953 Comp., § 57-1-1.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000]The state is not recognizing a religious definition of marriage but is defining it as a civil contract. There is no reason a minister would need to be involved. [/COLOR] [COLOR=#006600] 40-1-2. Marriages solemnized; ordained clergy or civil magistrates may solemnize. A.The civil contract of marriage is entered into when solemnized as provided in Chapter 40,Article 1 NMSA 1978. As used in Chapter 40, Article 1 NMSA 1978, "solemnize" means to join in marriage before witnesses by means of a ceremony. B.A person who is an ordained member of the clergy or who is an authorized representative of a federally recognized Indian nation, tribe or pueblo may solemnize the contract of marriage without regard to sect or rites and customs the person may practice. C.Active or retired judges, justices and magistrates of any of the courts established by the constitution of New Mexico, United States constitution, laws of the state or laws of the United States are civil magistrates having authority to solemnize contracts of marriage. Civil magistrates solemnizing contracts of marriage shall charge no fee therefor. [/COLOR] Now is this not spelling out a special role, authority given by the state, to meet the state's requirements, to ministers, Indian Nation representatives, or judges? It is. And they generally have to sign off on the license as well. This is not recognizing a right already inherent to religious bodies. This is recognizing a role they allow minsters to play in a civil contract. I am saying ministers should perform the religious ceremony and have nothing to do with the civil contract between the two parties. But that is my point. Why do ministers have to be involved at all in a civil contract? Why does the state have to involve them? That is the decision of the state to do so, largely based on prior tradition since many were married in churches, so witnesses would be present. There is no inherent need for the minister to be involved in a civil contract. My understanding is that in some countries the marriage is handled by the state and a separate religious ceremony is conducted if desired, and the two have no particular relation. That is what I would like to see, so that the state has no role being played by the church, and therefore no requirements put on the clergy for said role. Pastor Fred should have no role authorized by the state to help people enter into civil contracts in my view. The state chose to extend that authority to Pastor Fred. They did not need to. Why should it be incumbent upon Pastor Fred to get involved in the process and obtain a certificate for a civil contract, and sign it, etc? Leave Fred alone. The state should conduct the contract between the two parties. [/QUOTE]
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Alabama legislature moves to dispense with marriage licenses and solemnization
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