Alabama legislature moves to dispense with marriage licenses and solemnization

essentialsaltes

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The Alabama House of Representatives gave final passage today to a bill that would end the issuance of marriage licenses by probate judges and instead have them record documents that would serve as the official records of marriage.

It now goes to the governor

The legislation came in response to the legalization of same-sex marriage by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2015. In Alabama, some probate judges stopped issuing marriage licenses four years ago because they did not want to sign same-sex marriage licenses.

Man, wouldn't it be great if you wanted to just stop doing some unpleasant part of your job, and then the legislature would not get mad, but rather eliminate that part of your job description?

The bill also would end the requirement that a marriage be “solemnized” by a minister or another person qualified to do so.

Pretty secular for Alabama!
 

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The bill also would end the requirement that a marriage be “solemnized” by a minister or another person qualified to do so.
No matter when SSM isn't even a marriage to begin with. At least this way there will be less opportunity to sue a minister who refuses to 'solemnize' due to conscience sake.
 
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grandvizier1006

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It sounds like there's no change other than that a judge that objects to gay marriage on religious grounds doesn't have to physically issue a marriage license to a gay couple. Now they just have a document from elsewhere. I don't think even in Alabama a pastor could get away with refusing to marry a gay couple if it was a legally required duty.
 
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TLK Valentine

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No matter when SSM isn't even a marriage to begin with. At least this way there will be less opportunity to sue a minister who refuses to 'solemnize' due to conscience sake.

Who said anything about SSM? It's a moot point now; under this law, just about anything can be a "marriage"...
 
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tall73

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Christian ministers should not have any legal authority from the state. Let the religious service be a religious service, and let the state handle legalities.
 
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Pommer

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I don't think even in Alabama a pastor could get away with refusing to marry a gay couple if it was a legally required duty.
Which it, of course, isn’t!
 
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essentialsaltes

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At least this way there will be less opportunity to sue a minister who refuses to 'solemnize' due to conscience sake.

There can't be less than none, which is how much danger ministers face at the moment.

(unless they are running for-profit wedding chapels open to the public as a side business)
 
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dzheremi

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Good. Get the state out of marriage altogether. The compelling economic interest that used to come from the presumed biological reproduction of offspring isn't there in the case of gay couples or many straight couples (birth rates are at historic lows among millennials, for a variety of reasons), so what business is it of the state's anymore anyway? To grant people special tax statuses or rights in medical/hospitalization situations because "they love each other"? Sorry to sound cruel, but who cares? If you're not in the relationship yourself, then it has no effect on you, gay or straight or otherwise. Two people can love each other all they want without having to get a magical peiece of paper from the state acknowledging that they feel that way. Common law marriages are incredibly common, and many are never made official.

I just don't see any compelling reason for any state (Albama, California, Florida, Illinois...any of them) to be involved in the official recognition of marriages, absent furthering the economic stabilization/well being of the society as a whole, which is no longer presumed to be a motivator of marriage, since so many marry for 'love' in a society which has made the barrier to dissolution of marriages and families as low as it can possibly be. Even the concept of marrying for love rather than primarily family alliances/economic security/other reasons seems to be a pretty new one, if you consider that the "rich/noble birthed person loves lower status person; parents/society disapproves" plot has been a cliche for centuries.

So I say good for Alabama, though probably not for the same reasons that other people here might. Many Christians forget/don't know that Christian marriage ceremonies developed rather late in the history of Christianity as a means of avoiding the state's ceremonies, which depending on the time and place could have included mandatory participation in the public cult of the state to appease various non-Christian gods who guaranteed the Pax Romana, or the equivalent desire for tranquility in the Persian Empire (I don't know if they had a similar concept to Pax Romana, but I do know that the Persian rulers spent a lot of time before and some time after the Synod of Dadisho' in the fifth century arresting and killing Christians in their realm, particularly clergy who were presumed to be in cahoots with the Persians' traditional enemy, the Byzantines, on account of their shared religion; so the Persian and other Christians in the Persian Empire had plenty of reason to want to detach themselves from the state and its affairs, too, while simultaneously needing to show at least some degree of loyalty to it, for reasons of survival). Sounds like we're going back to that. I fail to see the downside, to be perfectly honest. When the society itself chooses something other than Christianity, shouldn't Christians still choose Christianity (NB: I'm not telling the followers of anything else what they should or shouldn't do), even if it means they may lose some of their 'stuff' (the benefits presumed to come from state recognition of marriage)? Well, it's not really traditional to Christianity to need or even necessarily want the state's recognition or approval of whatever it is you're doing. That came later with the Byzantine Empire, particularly the codification of the relation between the State and the Church in the Nomocanon of Emperor Justinian (and ideas from around that time, like the Pentarchy).

Note: That's not to say that Christians necessarily need to have a problem with the state (Jesus does say to obey rulers, after all, and indeed it's better to have a good relationship than a bad one; in every Coptic Orthodox liturgy we pray for the "ruler (king) of this land"; Egypt was part of the Byzantine Empire, too :)), only that when you're relying on it, then societal currents will carry your stability away with them as they will, exposing your house to be built upon sand. That's obviously a bad thing.
 
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grandvizier1006

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Good. Get the state out of marriage altogether. The compelling economic interest that used to come from the presumed biological reproduction of offspring isn't there in the case of gay couples or many straight couples (birth rates are at historic lows among millennials, for a variety of reasons), so what business is it of the state's anymore anyway? To grant people special tax statuses or rights in medical/hospitalization situations because "they love each other"? Sorry to sound cruel, but who cares? If you're not in the relationship yourself, then it has no effect on you, gay or straight or otherwise. Two people can love each other all they want without having to get a magical peiece of paper from the state acknowledging that they feel that way. Common law marriages are incredibly common, and many are never made official.

I just don't see any compelling reason for any state (Albama, California, Florida, Illinois...any of them) to be involved in the official recognition of marriages, absent furthering the economic stabilization/well being of the society as a whole, which is no longer presumed to be a motivator of marriage, since so many marry for 'love' in a society which has made the barrier to dissolution of marriages and families as low as it can possibly be. Even the concept of marrying for love rather than primarily family alliances/economic security/other reasons seems to be a pretty new one, if you consider that the "rich/noble birthed person loves lower status person; parents/society disapproves" plot has been a cliche for centuries.

So I say good for Alabama, though probably not for the same reasons that other people here might. Many Christians forget/don't know that Christian marriage ceremonies developed rather late in the history of Christianity as a means of avoiding the state's ceremonies, which depending on the time and place could have included mandatory participation in the public cult of the state to appease various non-Christian gods who guaranteed the Pax Romana, or the equivalent desire for tranquility in the Persian Empire (I don't know if they had a similar concept to Pax Romana, but I do know that the Persian rulers spent a lot of time before and some time after the Synod of Dadisho' in the fifth century arresting and killing Christians in their realm, particularly clergy who were presumed to be in cahoots with the Persians' traditional enemy, the Byzantines, on account of their shared religion; so the Persian and other Christians in the Persian Empire had plenty of reason to want to detach themselves from the state and its affairs, too, while simultaneously needing to show at least some degree of loyalty to it, for reasons of survival). Sounds like we're going back to that. I fail to see the downside, to be perfectly honest. When the society itself chooses something other than Christianity, shouldn't Christians still choose Christianity (NB: I'm not telling the followers of anything else what they should or shouldn't do), even if it means they may lose some of their 'stuff' (the benefits presumed to come from state recognition of marriage)? Well, it's not really traditional to Christianity to need or even necessarily want the state's recognition or approval of whatever it is you're doing. That came later with the Byzantine Empire, particularly the codification of the relation between the State and the Church in the Nomocanon of Emperor Justinian (and ideas from around that time, like the Pentarchy).

Note: That's not to say that Christians necessarily need to have a problem with the state (Jesus does say to obey rulers, after all, and indeed it's better to have a good relationship than a bad one; in every Coptic Orthodox liturgy we pray for the "ruler (king) of this land"; Egypt was part of the Byzantine Empire, too :)), only that when you're relying on it, then societal currents will carry your stability away with them as they will, exposing your house to be built upon sand. That's obviously a bad thing.
It's a painful separation. It's hard for most Christians in society, including myself, to grow up in a world of Christian culture and then be told that the country you live in is throwing it away based on secular whims. Within our government's framework, that's certainly possible. It's just irritating.
 
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tall73

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State involvement can lead to state control.

And the spiritual nature of a religious wedding service is not enhanced by mentioning "by the authority invested in me by the state of ____________".

The authority of a minister is not from the state.
 
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Who said anything about SSM? It's a moot point now; under this law, just about anything can be a "marriage"...
The legislation came in response to the legalization of same-sex marriage by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2015.
That's who.
'Anything' can be called marriage by man...not by God...
Genesis 2:24 KJVS
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
 
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There can't be less than none, which is how much danger ministers face at the moment.

(unless they are running for-profit wedding chapels open to the public as a side business)
That's definitely debatable.
 
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dzheremi

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It's a painful separation. It's hard for most Christians in society, including myself, to grow up in a world of Christian culture and then be told that the country you live in is throwing it away based on secular whims. Within our government's framework, that's certainly possible. It's just irritating.

Yep. I get it. I'm in the USA too. It's strange. As other people of other persuasions have pointed out, now Christians know the feeling that non-Christians have felt for a long time, and get to be just one group of many, rather than 'dominating' the society or whatever. It does feel odd that it is happening while Christians are still a clear majority in many Western countries (at least by self-identification, if not by action), but at the same time it's pretty naive to expect otherwise when so many have bought off hook, line, and sinker on the '"rights overdose" that characterizes the overall Balkanization of society, such that Christians as well make themselves just another one of many competing tribes.

So, in a way, I think we have nobody but ourselves to blame for this. If 70% or whatever of the USA is still Christian, then you'd be right to wonder why that's not reflected in 70% of the law code. And yes, people will say, correctly, that it is because we are a secular state, and I think that's a good thing (coming from a Church where "we" are 10% or less of the society, and live much more directly under the thumb of the openly persecuting dominant religion in places like Egypt, Sudan, Libya, etc.), but it s the manner of secularization that I don't like. Lebanon is officially secular, too, in the sense that "religion is for God; the country is for everyone" (as the banners carried by Christian and Muslim leaders in recent demonstrations there read). It seems like much of the West (save outliers like Hungary, Poland, and Malta) is taking a much more anti-public manifestation of religion kind of stance, at least when that religion is any kind of Christianity, which to me exposes the lie of their idea of secularism. We all know that much of the public intellectual and entertainment/celebrity class can't get enough of Islam..shocking, isn't it? :rolleyes:

I know for a fact that's the exact opposite of what my Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Arab Greek, etc. brothers and sisters came here for, so what I foresee more than a painful or irritating separation for western Christians is a kind of situation that one Pastor Niemöller wrote about in his famous poem about "first they came for the trade unionists, and I was not a trade unionist, so I did not speak up [...] then when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up for me." (I'm sure you know or know of the poem.)

When -- not if, but when -- the West falls to this distinctly anti-Christian form of faux-secularism (because they always fight hardest against the thing that is most proximal to them, whether it is in reality the 'most oppressive, worst thing ever' or not; most have no real sense of anything else, and hence cannot appreciate the freedoms they have, or in some cases even see them as freedoms), where will the people who came here specifically to live in peace in secular societies that were supposed to respect their rights go? It's all fine and well to say "now it's Christians' turn to be dis-empowered", but it's nothing but lying to yourself if you're saying that while distinctly favoring other religions instead (not very secular, that), while ignoring the fact that, in reality, for millions of Christians around the world, they're not empowered and they've never been empowered and in some cases (e.g., the Indian Syrians, the various Christians within the Persian Empire, etc.) never even sought to be empowered, and really just came here to practice their religion in peace. And the West, in its rush to be the welcome mat for every insane thing that isn't identifiably Western in some way, will stab them in the back, all the while claiming that it's all about "rights" and righting historical injustices and all this nonsense. Kyrie Eleison.

It's strange to me to say this, but I think the West could learn a thing or two about secularism within pluralistic societies with religiously-identifying majorities by looking at the few places in the East that still have that, e.g., Lebanon, Jordan, Bahrain, or even (time machine permitting) pre-war Iraq. They were/are never perfect, but they didn't/don't confuse themselves into thinking that being secular meant being anti-religious.

Less Dawkins-type rubbish, more King Abdullah II and Queen Rania.
 
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TLK Valentine

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That's who.
'Anything' can be caaled maariage by man...not by God...
Genesis 2:24 KJVS
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Be that as it may, God has no legal standing... if that wasn't the case before, Alabama saw to that.
 
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It's a painful separation. It's hard for most Christians in society, including myself, to grow up in a world of Christian culture and then be told that the country you live in is throwing it away based on secular whims. Within our government's framework, that's certainly possible. It's just irritating.

Your perspective might be skewed because of where you live. The U.S. still largely has a Christian culture, though not necessarily an evangelical Christian culture. And the "secular whims" to which you allude have been around since before I was born and I'm twice your age.
Do 'blue laws' still exist in the Lone Star State? Curious Texas investigates | Curious Texas | Dallas News
 
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TLK Valentine

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I don't think even in Alabama a pastor could get away with refusing to marry a gay couple if it was a legally required duty.

Well, I'm ordained, and I'll happily marry a gay couple... although I'll need to send a bill for my traveling expenses.
 
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