ain't we all????

[iitb]

You recant using that term in the same post you use it again? Nicely done. This from a man who's tried to convert himself.
I was going to show you where people get this, and a thread in which I debated a man who believes a far more exteme version of it than Flavius, but why bother? You've already made up your mind.
When you concede that ten tribes are lost and it will take G-d to find them, you open the door to the possibilities that many so-called gentiles are Jewish without knowing it.
It's often been said that no one is more over-zealous than a convert, and you're certainly proving that point here lately.
I don't recall saying anything about Flavius; I was speaking for myself. I don't have to look on while people uses a thermonuclear device to swat flies, and theology is not supposed to be used a weapon to harm others.
I owe JewishHeart an apology.

So, now to disagree with someone is considered "harming" them? Yafet and Flavius disagree on an issue, plain and simple. You are free to disagree with one or both of them. There's really no reason to get so upset.

 

[brentsbaby612]

Gently, humbly offering what I see to be the crux of the issue -- adopting-in is never replacing. If a couple which already has children later adopts some children into their home, are the children of the home replaced by the adopted ones? If the children of the home have left for college and they aren't in the home any longer, but run their lives outside their parents' rule... are those children of the home replaced when new ones are adopted in? No. The new children do not suddenly become the family aside from and outside of the children of the home. No one is replaced. No one is replaced. No one is replaced. If I could tattoo it on my forhead for all believers to begin to know this... I would.

No, we are not all Jews. I am not a Jew. But I do not need to be a Jew, and I do not have to be a Jew. G-d's Word is for me; because of Yeshua, I am adopted INTO His family and I may embrace and follow His whole Word. I do not replace my elder brother, nor even the absent "black sheep" of the family who has taken himself out from under the authority of my Abba, for a time. Rather, I am adopted. I am added in.

Nicely done!

 

[brentsbaby612]

Don't the disciples represent the 12 tribes of Israel? And Paul is the apostle for the gentiles? What's this stuff about 10 tribes?

I always hate it when my family so bluntly points out to me " Your not Jewish Erin!!"
As if I didn't already know that! Just because I keep the sabbath.

 

[Flavius]

Don't the disciples represent the 12 tribes of Israel? And Paul is the apostle for the gentiles? What's this stuff about 10 tribes?

I always hate it when my family so bluntly points out to me " Your not Jewish Erin!!"
As if I didn't already know that! Just because I keep the sabbath.

There are alot of prophecies concerning the return of Ephraim and that one day Ephraim will become one with Judah.

This means that the northern ten lost tribes will return and become one with the southern kingdom called Judah.

The Northern kingdom is called Ephraim because the tribe of Ephraim and Mannessah are the main tribes of the northern kingdom.

Shechem is the capital of northern kingdom.It's now called Nablus and is in the hands of Palistinians.

If the prophecies are correct about the return of Ephraim,that means that Arabs are occupying land they don't own.

Shechem belongs to the house of Joseph,that's where Joseph was buried and where his sons are buried.

Judea belongs to the Jews,the Southern kingdom.

The debate we are having is whether the future Ephraim is by the blood or by the spirit.

I believe gentiles are grafted into the house of Ephraim by spirit and Nablus belongs to the adopted sons of Israel who keep the traditions of Hashem.

I think Simchat thinks that the actual descendents of Ephraim will return.

At any rate,Ephraim will indeed return just like Judah has now returned.

Will it be gentiles who act like Jews and become one with Jews or will it be the actual bloodline descendants?

 

[ShirChadash]

There are alot of prophecies concerning the return of Ephraim and that one day Ephraim will become one with Judah.

If G-d doesn't know exactly who are Ephraim and who are not, then there can be no "return" of Ephraim, can there? After all, a return of someone... is a return of the one who left, not a coming of an entirely differing person to be a replacement for he who left. Nu?

 

[I’m_Lesha]

I don't understand all the hostility?

Yes, the Jewish people have gone through many trials, but so have the gentiles. Was it not the Jews who shund the gentiles? Wasn't it with jealousy that the gentiles acted against the Jews? I never heard of this replasing the Jews before.

Are we not all from Adam? Didn't Yahweh rest on the seventh day of creation to be with human kind? Didn't He also give his laws and commands to Adam to pass down through generations?

Are we not all descendents of Noah? Wasn't it our God who gave the clean and unclean to him first for all?

Did not Yahweh see great potential in Abram to raise up a people to show His ways to the world so that through all their generations all nations may be blessed?

Who needs to be Jewish? Who needs to have land in Israel? Is not the whole world God's? Does not God bless ALL, give honor to ALL, and give His promises to ALL who follow His ways?

I am very saddened by this. I feel I have no place among believers. I shun the teachings of the secular Christians, and am shuned by the Jewish followers of Yahweh. What is a soul to do?

May the God of all send an abundance of blessings upon you.

Lesha
ps. I hate that I have to put that I am a Christian in order to post here.

 

[Henaynei]

I don't understand all the hostility?

Yes, the Jewish people have gone through many trials, but so have the gentiles. Was it not the Jews who shund the gentiles? Wasn't it with jealousy that the gentiles acted against the Jews? I never heard of this replasing the Jews before.

Are we not all from Adam? Didn't Yahweh rest on the seventh day of creation to be with human kind? Didn't He also give his laws and commands to Adam to pass down through generations?

Are we not all descendents of Noah? Wasn't it our God who gave the clean and unclean to him first for all?

Did not Yahweh see great potential in Abram to raise up a people to show His ways to the world so that through all their generations all nations may be blessed?

Who needs to be Jewish? Who needs to have land in Israel? Is not the whole world God's? Does not God bless ALL, give honor to ALL, and give His promises to ALL who follow His ways?

I am very saddened by this. I feel I have no place among believers. I shun the teachings of the secular Christians, and am shuned by the Jewish followers of Yahweh. What is a soul to do?

May the God of all send an abundance of blessings upon you.

Lesha
ps. I hate that I have to put that I am a Christian in order to post here.

Dear one, it is true, as you say, there is much you don't understand about Jewish and Gentile relations - it takes great humility to state such openly and will see you truly on the path of knowledge and understanding

You *are not* being rejected!!! A theology called "replacement theology" is what is being rejected - no persons

When non-Jews claim ownership of the blessings and promises to the Jews - that is replacement theology - it comes in many guises and cloaks - but in the core it is always simply that......

May the G-d of Israel bless you as well

 

[Flavius]

If G-d doesn't know exactly who are Ephraim and who are not, then there can be no "return" of Ephraim, can there? After all, a return of someone... is a return of the one who left, not a coming of an entirely differing person to be a replacement for he who left. Nu?

I don't think you can compare the return of Ephraim to the return of Judah.I believe it was Nehamiah who made everyone put away their gentile wives and that's what kept them Judah

Judah was punished just like Ephraim but Judah returned from Babylon while Ephraim never returned from Assyria.Ephraim means a multitude of nations.

Anyway I keep looking for a certain scripture that says G-d will not completely do away with Judah like he did Ephraim.

 

[Flavius]

When non-Jews claim ownership of the blessings and promises to the Jews - that is replacement theology - it comes in many guises and cloaks - but in the core it is always simply that......

Do you think I fall into this catagory Henny?

 

[Flavius]

I don't understand all the hostility?



I am very saddened by this. I feel I have no place among believers. I shun the teachings of the secular Christians, and am shuned by the Jewish followers of Yahweh. What is a soul to do?

These are pretty good people on here but for a long time,I felt the same way as you being rejected by both

 

[ShirChadash]

I don't think you can compare the return of Ephraim to the return of Judah.I believe it was Nehamiah who made everyone put away their gentile wives and that's what kept them Judah

Judah was punished just like Ephraim but Judah returned from Babylon while Ephraim never returned from Assyria.Ephraim means a multitude of nations.

Anyway I keep looking for a certain scripture that says G-d will not completely do away with Judah like he did Ephraim.

No no -- but my point is, Flav, that you said this:

There are alot of prophecies concerning the return of Ephraim and that one day Ephraim will become one with Judah.

Scripture speaks of a return. Not a replacing of Ephraim, but of a returning of Ephraim. If Ephraim is now suddenly someone other than who Ephraim was to begin with -- then there is no return possible, correct? Yet, we gentiles were not Ephraim, as Ephraim was part and parcel of Isra'el. Even now, as Ephraim is scattered and mixed among the gentiles (and a number were assimilated of all those tribes into Judah itself)... does not G-d know who is Ephraim and who is not? And who is Judah and who is not?

(BTW, not said with any malice, disrespect or unkindness whatsoever... please don't anyone read me that way... I'm not posting that way at all... I hope anyway! )

 

[ShirChadash]

I think also that the notion that gentile believers in Yeshua are suddenly now Ephraim in a substitutionary sense (not a grafted-in, intermixing, assimilating, etc. sense) is rooted in the forgetting that there has always been provision in G-d's plan for gentiles to come close to YHVH Elohim, even before Yeshua. Gentiles didn't replace Ephraim per se, when they became righteous or converted fully, before Yeshua. So why the thought that gentiles replace Ephraim now? Or am I missing something?



...rushed, sorry if I am unclear!
~Z~

 

[Flavius]

I think I made a very big mess of this but if I am fundamentally wrong in believing what I believe,i'de like to know where.

Ok,again-Paul speaking in Romans 9-22 discussing the adoption of gentiles into Israel quoting G-d in Hosea speaking specifacly to Ephraim the Northern Kingdom.

Not my people become my people.

This is Paul explaining that gentiles are grafted through the house of Israel called Ephraim.


This is the first point.I would like to know if anybody disagrees with any word.

 

[Flavius]

There was a catholic came in here and started a thread and I smarted off to him and when I got back on to apoligize,the thread was gone.

Your right Plan 9,none of us should smart off to each other and I feel guilty I didn't word what I wrote better cause as I look back,it was offensive but what would I do without you? I do love all these people on here,heck I like anybody that will talk to me. free kisses all around

 

[Plan 9]

I think I made a very big mess of this but if I am fundamentally wrong in believing what I believe,i'de like to know where.

Ok,again-Paul speaking in Romans 9-22 discussing the adoption of gentiles into Israel quoting G-d in Hosea speaking specifacly to Ephraim the Northern Kingdom.

Not my people become my people.

This is Paul explaining that gentiles are grafted through the house of Israel called Ephraim.


This is the first point.I would like to know if anybody disagrees with any word.

Flavius, I can't find any mention of Ephraim specifically. What translation are you using? Mine says Jacob. Also, be sure to read all the way through chapter 11, okay?

 

[ShirChadash]

Ok,again-Paul speaking in Romans 9-22 discussing the adoption of gentiles into Israel quoting G-d in Hosea speaking specifacly to Ephraim the Northern Kingdom.

Not my people become my people.

1) Yes, G-d will restore Ephraim, who turned from Him, was divorced from her husband (HaShem), and was cast off and no longer His people. Not My people -- Ephraim. G-d also takes those from the nations who do not call upon Him, reveals Himself to them and draws them near by His Spirit. Not My people -- gentiles.

This is Paul explaining that gentiles are grafted through the house of Israel called Ephraim.

2) no -- I disagree. For one thing, we are not grafted in through the house of Israel/Ephraim. We are grafted in through Yeshua, "salvation", atonement; we are drawn near by the Living Torah who spoke the Written Torah in the first place. And secondly, IMO this is not Paul explaining that gentiles are grafted in through the house of...(whoever) etc. This is, instead, Paul explaining that our G-d has a history and a capability of calling unto Himself anyone He chooses -- even those who seem to be utterly and entirely removed from His grace. Ephraim, and gentiles, all of the above. This is not, IMO, Paul saying gentiles are the new Ephraim.


editing to hopefully be more clear.

 

[Plan 9]

There was a catholic came in here and started a thread and I smarted off to him and when I got back on to apoligize,the thread was gone.

He got worked over so badly that I'm sure he hardly noticed your post, supposing he even returned to read it, which I doubt. Did you know he's a Torah observant Orthodox Jew? He won't be back.

Your right Plan 9, none of us should smart off to each other and I feel guilty I didn't word what I wrote better cause as I look back,it was offensive but what would I do without you? I do love all these people on here,heck I like anybody that will talk to me. free kisses all around

Flaius, you could have worded what you had to say better, but you found the thread alarming, and wanted to know where you stood. You're one of the
biggest-hearted people here, and everyone must know that by now, and give you a chance to pull your thoughts together to explain.

 

[Henaynei]

I think also that the notion that gentile believers in Yeshua are suddenly now Ephraim in a substitutionary sense (not a grafted-in, intermixing, assimilating, etc. sense) is rooted in the forgetting that there has always been provision in G-d's plan for gentiles to come close to YHVH Elohim, even before Yeshua. Gentiles didn't replace Ephraim per se, when they became righteous or converted fully, before Yeshua. So why the thought that gentiles replace Ephraim now? Or am I missing something?



...rushed, sorry if I am unclear!
~Z~

VERY nicely said - and true!!!

 

[Henaynei]

When non-Jews claim ownership of the blessings and promises to the Jews - that is replacement theology - it comes in many guises and cloaks - but in the core it is always simply that......

Do you think I fall into this catagory Henny?

All I can do is quote you - you see what you think?



"I am a gentile but I consider myself a Jew"

"My question is S.T.-Am I of the tribes of Israel?
Am I?
If I am,that means I replaced somebody,if I'm not called of Israel then I have a problem."

"I have to tell you that I have replaced Ephraim and Gaza belongs to me.It's mine,and the west bank is my resting place.It's mine"

"I think if a gentile keeps Hashem's custom,He is seen as a Jew in the eyes of the world and the only difference between a Jew and that Gentile is blood."

I believe there was a void and I'm trying to fill it.

I believe gentiles are grafted into the house of Ephraim by spirit and Nablus belongs to the adopted sons of Israel who keep the traditions of Hashem.

 

[Flavius]

1) Yes, G-d will restore Ephraim, who turned from Him, was divorced from her husband (HaShem), and was cast off and no longer His people. Not My people -- Ephraim. G-d also takes those from the nations who do not call upon Him, reveals Himself to them and draws them near by His Spirit. Not My people -- gentiles.

2) no -- I disagree. For one thing, we are not grafted in through the house of Israel/Ephraim. We are grafted in through Yeshua, "salvation", atonement; we are drawn near by the Living Torah who spoke the Written Torah in the first place. And secondly, IMO this is not Paul explaining that gentiles are grafted in through the house of...(whoever) etc. This is, instead, Paul explaining that our G-d has a history and a capability of calling unto Himself anyone He chooses -- even those who seem to be utterly and entirely removed from His grace. Ephraim, and gentiles, all of the above. This is not, IMO, Paul saying gentiles are the new Ephraim.


editing to hopefully be more clear.

First off ,what does IMO mean?

See this is my problem.I really believe this is saying I am the new Ephraim.I'm not Jewish but if I call myself Ephraim I'm intitled to some inheritance,not Jews inheritance but Ephraim's.

I consider myself a Jew because by all outward apperances I act like one but Ephraim is not Jewish.I guess I need to consider myself something else.I never claimed Jewish lands,only Ephraim's.Hix convinced me not to get a tattoo by his interpretation and today I guarantee everybody,I will no longer consider myself a Jew because it's just the wrong word I suppose.You guys are right,there is a difference between Jew and gentile.

Let me try to get into your head.You believe that one day somehow that the descendents of Ephraim will suddenly know who they all are and they will make a return to Israel.It wont matter if their christian,muslim,buddaist,just as long as they are the descendents of Ephraim by blood.

You said we aren't grafted through Israel but we are grafted through Yeshuah, That's a broad statement.If we are grafted through Yeshuah and he is of Judah then wont that make us Jews?

But I believe we are grafted through Ephraim and we are not Jews,and I believe that is why the prophets are specific when they say that G-d will bend the bow of Judah and fill it with the arrow of Ephraim.

My mind wants to know how things will happen,for instance if there is a third temple built somehow the world attitude has to change about the state of Palistine becoming a nation because I just don't see Israel storming the temple mount right now and building.

Gentiles have always had a place in the stories.

Caleb was one and became a prince of Judah.

Moses had two sons,Gershom{stranger} and Eliezer{son of my house}

Rahab,Ruth, Japheth will reside in the tents of Shem.

Esther was adopted but she knew what tribe.If I am not of Ephraim,tell me what tribe I am in?

If we are truly grafted into Israel and as Isaiah states.the stranger who takes on the traditions of Israel will in no way be counted out of the inheritance of Israel.Where do I belong.

I guess I'm just a floater.

;] I'm always smiling when I write.
The book of Hosea is written to Ephraim.