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The bible tells us that being good does not get us into heaven
According to the Bible, there are people who live what we would consider morally good lives that go to hell Every Day!
God created us to love. To love unconditionally - as He loves us, unconditionally.
To "love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul" is living as God created us - in love.
Yes, love for God can include repentance. If you would knowingly hurt someone you loved deeply, the natural thing to do would be to say you were sorry - and mean it.
For me, repentance means going to Sacramental Confession, (or Reconciliation as it is now known) to confess that I did something wrong - and that I am truly sorry. It is not a condition. I don't "have" to go.. You don't have to say you're sorry to your loved one that you may have hurt - but that would be counter productive to the love that you share, there would be that wedge that pulls you and your loved one apart.
It is not that we "must" show our love, but that we WANT and NEED to show our love - in every way we can!
To "show" love, is to at least "try" to love as the Father loves us - unconditionally. (Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. )
When I think of unconditional love, I think of the love I have for my children.. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING they can or could ever do - whether to me or in ANY area of their lives - could ever prevent me from loving them with ALL my heart.
Yes, I would be disappointed and hurt if they were ever to do something wrong, but I would NEVER cease loving them with a mother's love that goes beyond everything. That, and so much more is the Father's love for US!!! Isn't that amazing???
As one who is in love, "refusing" to acknowledge that we have done something to hurt someone is not an option - if I am in love, I am completely honest in ALL areas of my live - in what I may have done. Pure love is complete honesty. I love that honesty between me and God. I love talking to Jesus and "putting it all out there" - and if there is something that I find goes against the will of God, I love having the opportunity to confess my errors in the Sacrament of Reconcilliation.
When Jesus said to "obey" him, I believe he was saying to look into His teachings.. Feed the hungry, clothe the poor, comfort the dying, love one another... DO UNTO OTHERS..... in other words, LOVE... "Love one another..." He spoke of love... "Do this in remembrance of me..." The only discipline we have is to love as we are loved.. To me, that is a labor of love - nothing more, nothing less.. love as a lover, a spouse, as a parent, as I want and need to be loved...
All I can say is that as as parent, God (in a way that only God can) has taught the deep love the Trinity has for me. The very moment I held my children for the first time, I knew I would love them - forever. Without conditions.. No matter where their lives go, whatever they choose, whatever they may say or do, I love them - and I believe with all my heart that the love of the Trinity is far deeper than my frail, human heart can hold..Love is patient (condition), kind (condition), does not envy (condition), does not boast (condition), not proud (condition), etc...
I'm afraid I do not agree.. These are not "conditions" - when I am patient with my Grandson, it is my love for him - not a "condition of that love", when I am kind to the elderly lady next door, I do it because she needs me - again, not a "condition" - I do not expect anything in return. I am not envious, I thank God for your good fortune, not "conditional", boastful or proud - I try my hardest not to be, but if I am, I know that God loves me anyway.. Again, He poses no "conditions"
You've just listed a bunch of conditions for what love is. If one does not meet those conditions, one is not showing love. I'm not sure if this is still a communication problem, or just an area where we will have to agree to disagree.
Perhaps we should agree to disagree. The only way I can possibly explain the love of God is that of the love of a parent. God is our Father. He loves us. I am a parent, I love my children - no matter WHAT they do, I love them. With all my heart, I love them - I would give my very LIFE for them (as God has done for us).. Without "conditions".. I can not make it any more clear.
But the first condition of this supposed unconditional love for your children is that they are YOUR children. If it wasn't so, you would not have made a point about these children being your children; you would have just talked about your love for children in general.
I mentioned the example of my love for my children - because we are ALL (YOU and I) are children of God - he loves us greater than the love of a parent for their child
And yet, people WILL suffer eternal consequences (whatever form they may take). Is that unconditional love? It could be that people will suffer actual, physical pain for eternity as a result of their decisions in life, or perhaps their punishment will be to miss out on certain rewards, or maybe they will not experience anything at all, but just be completely destroyed.
I do not know what will happen at the end of our days - but I do believe in God's mercy, His everlasting mercy.. I believe, I hope, I trust in His mercy for me - for ALL of us!
Whatever the case, is it unloving for God to hold us accountable for our actions? A condition of avoiding punishment is to learn to make decisions based on what God wants. But unconditional love says we don't even need to try; God will love us regardless...
I believe this thinking is incorrect. When a child is being disrespectful of others, or doing wrong in ways that would hurt themselves - we as parents are expected to correct that child - because we LOVE them, not because we are abusive monsters! We ARE accountable for our actions, just as the unruly child is accountable for breaking the lamp. We must learn to make decisions based on what God wants just as my grandson must learn not to throw the softball in my living room and ultimately breaking my lamp (which he of course did - and received a time out for it, too!) But although I have corrected my own children and put my grandson in time out doesn't mean that I don't love them - it proves my love for them, because they need to learn what is acceptable behaviour and what is not...
A condition of expressing the kind of love you are referring to here is to deal with our problems. If we refuse to deal with our problems, we are not showing love. This is a condition.
I do not agree. We are all human, and we have issues, problems, frailties, and are most un-perfect. The beautiful things is that God loves us anyway! No condition there! He MADE us human - and with free will - we WILL make mistakes.. That does not diminish God's love for us.
I'm not sure how else to express this thought because it seems really simple and straightforward in the way I am expressing it now. Maybe it's just that I am still not understanding what you mean by unconditional love, though I'm fairly sure I DO understand you.
I fully understand what you are expressing, and you're focusing on perceived "conditions" - the beauty is that there are no conditions, and in all this, YOU ultimately have free will. If you feel that there are "conditions" and you're not willing to accept these perceived"conditions" then in your free will you aren't willing to accept the love that God freely gives (and will always give whether you accept it or not!) you have the free will to go your own way. That is not my choice, and my life is richer, fuller and more complete because of it.
What you are saying here sounds kind of nice, but I get the feeling that you end up not really saying much at all. I already made the point that we need to obey Jesus as a way of showing our love for him, but then you rephrase what I said as though I didn't really explain it properly in the way I expressed it.
I am a liturgist, a catechist, and a DRE. What I am trying to convey isn't just something "nice" - it's the reality of my faith. Jesus loves me - period. I don't have to love him back, I don't have to follow him, I don't even have to believe.. But, He loves me just the same - I am not worthy of this love, but it's still there. I have thrown it away, it's still there. I have ignored it, refused it - it is still there. God loves YOU, whether you want it, need it, desire it, think there are "conditions".. It doesn't matter, you ARE loved..
There are many commands of Jesus in the gospels for HOW to show love towards others. I'm not sure we really do those teachings justice by covering them with a blanket statement about how the only discipline we need is to love.
Jesus teaches us HOW to love. It is my joy to at least TRY to love as Jesus has taught me - I receive far more out of living the beatitudes than I give, that I assure you! Feed the hungry - there is nothing more amazing than giving a pint of soup to an elderly woman who hasn't seen her family for over a year and just needs to have some company - she has taught me so much, and I love her for it. Give clothing to the naked - I get great healing to my Rheumatoid Arthritis by knitting shawls for hospice patients. Comfort the mourning - my best friend lost her husband to heart disease at the ripe old age of 38. She and I have grown closer and deeper because of this sad experience. Her ten year old daughter has become MY daughter as well (a daughter I never had)..
Perhaps it would be appropriate to discuss the specifics of his commands on HOW to love others?
No conditions, no rules, no boundaries - that love is there for the taking.
Jesus spoke of LOVE - Period. His word is based on LOVE - PeriodUnless we embrace this love as a child embraces a parent, without fear, without trepidation, without "conditions" - we ultimately fail to"get it". Too often "smart" folk attempt to look more into what the Gospel is teaching
Churchies are people whose first loyalty is to the institutional church rather than to Jesus. They are defensive about the establishment and critical of anyone who supports the teachings of Jesus. Unfortunately, this includes the vast majority of churchgoers
Overall, I found that the site is very dark.. And although the words sound "nice" and general on the surface, the message - or perhaps I should say the technicalities of what I have read mask what I believe is the true message of the Gospel
Another example: Churchies hate us for the same reason the Pharisees and other religious leaders hated Jesus--He pointed people back to true faith and signalled the end of religion as an institution, with all of its greed, hypocrisy, and self-righteousness.
the mere thought that because I attend church (yes, I am a "churchie") makes me hate you (strong word) is dangerous and misleading Where is the teaching of "love, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness.. Shame on whoever wrote this nonsense.
I get that we shouldnt kill. What is written, on the surface sounds "nice", but in reality makes no sense.
Two questions, WHO wrote the articles that are written within the site, and on what authority are those opinions offered??
In other words, why should I accept them as truth??
the gospel is NOT about "me" but about the love that God has for me, for those around me - that God loves YOU - period.
When we trip on the technicalities and put thoughts and ideas into the Gospel that just arent there,
Do you both believe Gods Love is unconditional?
Look at the Prodigal son (Luke 15) was the fathers Love conditional or unconditional?
What the father did not do was force the son to return Home, but if the son has free will how would it be loving on the Fathers part to force him to do what he did not want to do?
Did the prodigal son do some great think deserving of praise and worthy of anything?
Has there ever been a monument erected to those that surrendered?
Is God trying to get something from humans or is God trying to give something to humans (what would a wonderful Father want from his children and what did the Father of the prodigal son want)?
Yes, there are lots of commands given to followers, but are these the conditions of Gods Love or are they to help the follower or does God get something out of the followers obeying these commands?
Are we to do stuff to get something or because we have been given something? (Which motive would you as a parent like to see your kids do stuff for you?)
Can God go on with you not obeying His command (like the prodigal son in the foreign country) or can you go on rebelling in the foreign country to you starve to death? The Father Loves you either way.
I recently became engaged to a non-denominational christian women. She wants me to try to convert for her but I have too many questions about her beliefs for me to make any kind of commitment to a religion. I was hoping to find some answers from elsewhere.
What does your child have to do before you love your child?I am suggesting that God has a kind of love for his creations that exists even as he punishes or even destroys them completely.
I am suggesting that "unconditional love", as Lisa describes it, is inconsistent with the standards that Jesus set for what it means to show/experience love.
So you think the fathers Love was conditional on the son saying: sorry, I was wrong, because in the story the father runs to the son hugs him and kissed him, before the son has a chance to say anything?A very simple way to answer this question is to imagine what the father's response would have been if the son returned claiming that his father still owed him even more than what was already given to him on the basis that they were family.
Would anyone, regardless of religious affiliation, feel the son was correct in such an attitude after what happened in the first part of the story, based on "unconditional love"?
Of course not. All common sense and practical experience tells us that the only way to really fix the problem is for the son to say "sorry, I was wrong". And that's exactly how Jesus told the story.
There is a wonderful word called "consequences". It is wonderful because it does not involve force of any kind. It completely depends only on the decisions of the individual. It takes into account the individual's freedom of choice at the same time it takes into account standards set by the boss.
The prodigal son was not forced to do anything. The consequences of his stubborn, greedy, selfish, lazy choices caused him to realize that he'd genuinely wronged his father. As a result of that realization, he WANTED to apologize to his father, because he realized that was the loving thing to do.
You might be equating apologizing with repenting, but I do not see that. The problem is not with apologizing, but is with turning from doing what you have been doing to accepting Gods charity. When an enemy surrenders he can still be guilty of war crimes and deserving of a torturous death and at the point of surrender is still an enemy that gave up (that is what we were). I would not say the enemy that surrenders is at that point apologizing, But surrendering is enough to allow God to finally show His mercy/grace/charity/Love/forgiveness and make that enemy a child. We are taught that our response is not the precursor to His Love but come afterward he that is forgiven much Loves much that Love we have for God and all His children comes after we accept Gods Love in the form of forgiveness.How much better than the attitude that "unconditional love" gives us the right NOT to apologize for our wrongs.
This young son is mess until after the father gets hold of him. When I read this story the rejoicing I feel is not from the actions of the son, but from the actions of the Father, so yes the sons return allowed us to rejoice over the Love of the Father.Apparently, the angels in Heaven rejoice over one lost sheep that is "found" than over 99 lost.
We have nothing to give to the creator of the universe, but the opportunity to allow Him to give His Love to us.Why can't it be both at the same time?
I am seeing everything being do for the sake of those that Love Him (Rm 8:28) willing to accept his Love.To use Lisa's example, are parents trying to "get something" from their children by making rules out of brushing teeth or going to bed at a certain time? Why should Jesus' rules about how his followers should live be circumspect, as though it's wrong for Jesus to make rules about his own love.
For Christ's sake, it's his love, he can make whatever rules he wants about it!
we want to be citizens of that kingdom or are we citizens of the kingdom and do it out of appreciation?The law is for the lawless. Children obey their parents because they do not understand the reasons behind the rules. They do no understand tooth decay, cavities, etc. They brush thier teeth because they are ordered to.
But, as they grow older, they come to understand the reasons behind such rules, and the rules cease to be rules, because they will follow the reason behind the rules without being told to.
It's like this with Jesus' teachings. At first, it is a command because we don't understand spiritual things. But as we apply the rules and grow, we come to understand the reasons, and they are no longer commands, but rather, values of the kingdom of Heaven which we apply because we want to be citizens of that kingdom and not because of some law.
But first, as little children, we must respect Jesus' right to tell us what to do and to set standards on his love.
God is not happy about those that go to hell, because they are children He Loves. They, like the prodigal son that left home, have free will and God will not force them to live with Him.When you say "the father loves you either way" in the context of someone who refuses to obey, what do you mean?
Obedience is what we get to do that pleases God while we are here on earth (is that not wonderful)? Do we not want to please God? Do we not want to know what might please God and what does not please God?Are you saying obedience is unnecessary because God will love us anyway? If so, what's the point of even commanding people to obey (Which Jesus clearly does over and over again)?
Do you see any consequences of NOT obeying, and if so, how are these consequences consistent OR INconsistent with God's love?
What does your child have to do before you love your child?
So you think the fathers Love was conditional on the son saying: sorry, I was wrong, because in the story the father runs to the son hugs him and kissed him, before the son has a chance to say anything?
You might be equating apologizing with repenting, but I do not see that. The problem is not with apologizing, but is with turning from doing what you have been doing to accepting Gods charity.
I would not say the enemy that surrenders is at that point apologizing, But surrendering is enough to allow God to finally show His mercy/grace/charity/Love/forgiveness and make that enemy a child.
We have nothing to give to the creator of the universe, but the opportunity to allow Him to give His Love to us.
If Jesus did anything for his sake that would be for some selfish motive and Godly type Love is totally unselfish.
we want to be citizens of that kingdom or are we citizens of the kingdom and do it out of appreciation?
Obedience is what we get to do that pleases God while we are here on earth (is that not wonderful)? Do we not want to please God? Do we not want to know what might please God and what does not please God?
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