Agnostic & Believer

[ForeRunner]

Forerunner, can you tell me any more about the UCC? We have Church of Christ in my area but I've heard that they are very legalistic (confessing sins to one another, strict church attendance, no musical instruments, etc.). Is this the same UCC?

Thanks.

wayfaring

That is entirely possible. From what I understand about the structure of UCC is that it gives much freedom to the individual Churches. While I have not seen anything that you mentioned in the Church I am associated with, it likely that other Churches do do that.

The UCC organization in Massachuestts for example supports homosexual marriage, but individual churches and ministers are allowed to decide whether or not they will perform such ceremonies.

 

[wayfaring]

The only way that you can provide a Christian home is to allow your wife to have the spiritual authority in the home. As a christian, she should still be submisive to you, but not in spiritual matters - in those matters you must become submisive to her in order to fulfill your vows.

On the other hand, i am supposing that your vows were made to God. Since you no longer believe in God, why would you be concerned about keeping them?
If you really love your family, how will you be able to sit by and let them believe what you consider a lie? Doesn't the truth proceed out of love?

Larry,

I am an agnostic. I suspect and hope that He might be "out there" but I find no convincing evidence for a Creator.

It is not my place, as husband or father to try to disprove God. If God is real, it is His place to prove Himself (which He seems to refuse to do).

So at this point, the best "truth" I can give, to myself, my wife, or my kids, is "I don't know." And I don't think that there is anything wrong with admitting it, especially to my kids.

wayfaring

 

[ForeRunner]

As a christian, she should still be submisive to you.

What bothers me more than anything in this whole thread is this statement. Why should a man's wife ever, EVER be submissive to him. That is misogynist bull****. My girlfriend is my equal, and I love her as an equal. I can't imagine her being submissive to me, just because I am a man. So, the heck what? Bah!

I need to go squeeze one off to cool down

 

[larryicr]

My girlfriend is my equal, and I love her as an equal. I can't imagine her being submissive to me, just because I am a man.

Being submisive has nothing to do with equality. Jesus is submisive to the Father, but they are equal.

Eph 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Col 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

It should also be noted that the husband is called to love the wife to the point of sacrifice. A christian does not lead as the world leads, out of fear and power; a christian leads with love and service.

 

[larryicr]

I am an agnostic. I suspect and hope that He might be "out there" but I find no convincing evidence for a Creator.

It is not my place, as husband or father to try to disprove God. If God is real, it is His place to prove Himself (which He seems to refuse to do).

So at this point, the best "truth" I can give, to myself, my wife, or my kids, is "I don't know." And I don't think that there is anything wrong with admitting it, especially to my kids.

I think you are right in being honest with your family about what you believe and question. I think it is important that you let your wife have the spiritual authority in the house, but there is nothing wrong with you expressing your honest feelings.

You find no evidence of a Creator? I find that hard to believe. Don't you think that the intricate design of this entire planet is some kind of evidence of a Creator? Is it easier for you to believe that such perfect eco-systems and biological processes came about by accident, without any design?

If you were raised on a deserted island and a watch washed up on shore, would you reason that it must have accidentally been created by the sea? Or would reason dictate that such an intricate design must have an intelligent creator behind it?

 

[wayfaring]

Hi Larry,

>I think you are right in being honest with your family about what you believe and question. I think it is important that you let your wife have the spiritual authority in the house, but there is nothing wrong with you expressing your honest feelings.

Well, I don't know if I would call it "spiritual authority". To me, that sounds too much like "spiritual dictatorship", which, even when I was Southern Baptist, I didn't subscribe to. I've never told my wife what to believe or to keep silent in church.

But I don't mind letting my children be exposed to orthodox Christianity as, at some point, they will become inquisitive about their beliefs. It is normal for "Christian" kids to eventually realize that they need their own faith, that they can't ride on the coattails of mommy and daddy's faith. When that times comes, my wife and I have agreed that I can share with them what I do and don't believe.

In my upbringing, my mother seemed to hold to some form of Christianity (although she didn't go to church). My father would never discuss religious beliefs with me at all because, he later said, he didn't want to influence my decision. Looking back on it, I feel he did me a disservice by not teaching me to think critically when I began to question. Oddly, I never found anyone in those years who could answer my questions but I stayed on the Christian road because I was taught that to "depart from the faith" was a guarantee of a one-way ticket to hell. Not knowing how to reason through my faith, my faith was pretty much blind. I had alot of scriptures that I could point to, of course, but my questions were never answered and I was made to feel that to question, to have doubts, was an abomination in God's sight.

So when my children do reach the questioning point, even though I don't have the answers myself, I can at least reinforce to them that they need to be "Bereans" and look at the scriptures critically to see if they are everything that the fundamentalists claim them to be.

>You find no evidence of a Creator? I find that hard to believe. Don't you think that the intricate design of this entire planet is some kind of evidence of a Creator?

Maybe. Maybe not. Again, I don't know.

>Is it easier for you to believe that such perfect eco-systems and biological processes came about by accident, without any design?

I don't see any "perfect eco-systems and biological processes." I see the law of entropy in full effect and that means that everything is running down and decaying, not maintain a "perfect" balance. With all the death, diseases, and suffering in this world, I definately don't think that humanity has a "perfect" biology either.

>If you were raised on a deserted island and a watch washed up on shore, would you reason that it must have accidentally been created by the sea? Or would reason dictate that such an intricate design must have an intelligent creator behind it?

First off, it is not likely that a watch would wash up on shore. Watches, contrary to contemporary Christian theology, do not float. Axe-heads, yes. Watches, no.

But if a watch did washed up on shore, yes, I would probably suspect that someone had created it for a purpose. However, it is one thing to suspect that there might be a creator, it is quite another to say that the Christian God is that creator. If I suspected a creator for the watch, I would see how the watch interfaced with me to determine what kind of creator the watch had. In other words, if the watch somehow shocked me or pinched me, I would most likely think that its creator were cruel or had ill-intent. If the watch was simply asthetically pleasing and didn't harm me, then I would think its creator to be benevolent or maybe apathetic.

And that is the problem with the world and with the fundamentalist Christian mindset. If we look at creation around us, we have to conclude that, in many ways, it is harmful to our existence. Yes, it has some good and some beauty. But creation is not naturally beneficial to human survival. It often works against us. This points to either a cruel creator or an impotent one who let his creation get out of control.

Add to that, the fundamentalist Christian mindset says that God has created the majority of humans either predestining them for hell or at least with the knowledge that they will choose hell. So, again, the creator does not seem to be very good. After all, what watch-smith creates watches just so that he can later smash them with a hammer? But that is exactly what the fundamentalist's Christian god does. He is said to destroy most of his creations forevermore in eternal torment. Sound like a loving Creator to you? Sounds like a sadist to me.

wayfaring

 

[larryicr]

Wayfaring,

Excellent responses.
I may have gone overboard when i said "perfect" eco-systems. Just consider it a little bit of hyperbole.

And that is the problem with the world and with the fundamentalist Christian mindset. If we look at creation around us, we have to conclude that, in many ways, it is harmful to our existence. Yes, it has some good and some beauty. But creation is not naturally beneficial to human survival. It often works against us. This points to either a cruel creator or an impotent one who let his creation get out of control.

The Christian belief is not that God made creation harmful to us, but that mankind made it harmful by sinning against God and incurring a curse on all of creation. To say that God is to blame would be a bit egocentrical from a christian percpective since we were the ones who sinned even after we were told of terrible consequences.
And, it is not out of control. God is still in control, and at the appointed time He will make all things right again. After all, He is being patient so that more can be brought into His fold. If He were to make all things perfect now, when some of God's people have not come to Him, then that would be a mean thing for God to do.

Add to that, the fundamentalist Christian mindset says that God has created the majority of humans either predestining them for hell or at least with the knowledge that they will choose hell. So, again, the creator does not seem to be very good. After all, what watch-smith creates watches just so that he can later smash them with a hammer? But that is exactly what the fundamentalist's Christian god does. He is said to destroy most of his creations forevermore in eternal torment. Sound like a loving Creator to you?

A potter has the right to create his vessels for whatever purpose he pleases. God has no less right. He can make an ashtray that gets burning embers thrust into it, or he can make a beautiful piece of artwork that is appreciated asthetically.

It's not amazing to me that many end up in Hell for eternity, what's amazing to me is that any end up in Heaven. That's the love and grace of God. We are all responsible for our sin against God. We either accept the payment of Jesus or we pay for it ourselves.

Yes, God controls it all, but not in such a way that prohibits our responsibility and choice.

I'll tell you what sounds like a loving creator -
God Himself takes on human flesh to suffer and die for us.

I'll tell you what sounds like an unloving and ungrateful creation -
We don't accept His gift to us.

 

[wayfaring]

Hi Larry,

>The Christian belief is not that God made creation harmful to us, but that mankind made it harmful by sinning against God and incurring a curse on all of creation.

That's what I inferred when I said that creation got out of God's control.

>To say that God is to blame would be a bit egocentrical from a christian percpective since we were the ones who sinned even after we were told of terrible consequences.

But, Larry, God is sovereign. Nothing can thwart His will, right? Whether God does it or whether He "allows" it, HE is still responsible (if He is sovereign, that is).

And I have to disagree with you -- God never told Adam of the consequences that fundies hold to.

What God told Adam was that, if he sinned, he would die. God never once mentioned that all of creation would fall, that God would punish all of Adam's offspring for his sin (sound just to you?) or that most of his offspring would burn forever in eternal torment. For some reason, God left those things out of his warning to Adam.

>God is still in control, and at the appointed time He will make all things right again.

Not according to fundie theology. They maintain that most of the race that God tried to redeem end up in hell. So, technically, not ALL things are made right again, only SOME things (if you believe fundamentalism).

>A potter has the right to create his vessels for whatever purpose he pleases. God has no less right. He can make an ashtray that gets burning embers thrust into it, or he can make a beautiful piece of artwork that is appreciated asthetically.

True. But a potter who truly loves his work does not destroy it. The fundie God destroys His work. So I have to question if that potter is truly good or not?

>I'll tell you what sounds like a loving creator - God Himself takes on human flesh to suffer and die for us.

Ahh, the line that God has to kill Himself in an effort to try to save the world...but He still fails to save it, doesn't He?

>I'll tell you what sounds like an unloving and ungrateful creation - we don't accept His gift to us.

And I'll tell you what your God sounds like. He sounds like a "father" (I use the term loosely) who tells his child, "You have made some mistakes. Because I love you, I offer you the gift of forgiveness. But if you refuse my love and don't want the gift, I'll take back my love, my forgiveness, and I'll hunt you down and kill you." Sound like a God whose "love endures forever"?

Thanks for the interaction, Larry, but this isn't the thread to discuss this sort of thing. Take care.

wayfaring

 

[larryicr]

Wayfaring,

But, Larry, God is sovereign. Nothing can thwart His will, right? Whether God does it or whether He "allows" it, HE is still responsible (if He is sovereign, that is).

I do believe that God is sovereign, but i don't believe that means we relinquish responsibility for our own actions. I understand where you are coming from, but i hope you appreciate that it is not the biblical christian view that God is responsible for our sin.

And I have to disagree with you -- God never told Adam of the consequences that fundies hold to.

I agree with you on this point.

most of the race that God tried to redeem end up in hell. So, technically, not ALL things are made right again, only SOME things

This may be due to our differing ideas of what is "right". I believe it is right for sinners to be cast into Hell for eternity. It is my opinion that you may not fully comprehend the depths of sin to think otherwise. To have someone filled with sin in the presence of God is "wrong" not "right".

But a potter who truly loves his work does not destroy it. The fundie God destroys His work. So I have to question if that potter is truly good or not?

This is an interesting point.
There are some christians who hold to the idea of sinners being "destroyed", but it is not the traditional or the common doctrine. The traditional doctrine is that God's work is not destroyed, but tormented forever in Hell. There are also some lines of thought that say sinners are cast into Hell to actually be purified by the fire. After they are purified they are brought into Heaven. This line of thought believes that all mankind will be saved in the end because the bible says that it is God's will that all be saved.
My belief is the traditional one - eternal torment in Hell.

To me the judgement of the wicked glorifies God's justice, the mercy on the redeemed glorifies God's mercy. In both God is glorified.

Ahh, the line that God has to kill Himself in an effort to try to save the world...but He still fails to save it, doesn't He?

Some hold to that view. Since i am a reformed christian, i believe a little different. I believe that God came and died for the elect, so that His sacrifice doesn't fail because the elect are drawn to Him.

But if you refuse my love and don't want the gift, I'll take back my love, my forgiveness, and I'll hunt you down and kill you." Sound like a God whose "love endures forever"?

He never takes His love away. He also never forces your will to bend to what He most desires, to be close to you. A loving God cannot force your will.

this isn't the thread to discuss this sort of thing.

Sure, tell me this at the end, after i already posted all this stuff , guess i should have read the whole thing first

It was great talking with you, I will keep you and your family in my prayers

Didn't mean to be preachy

Alright, that's enough exuses to use the cool smilies. (maybe one more )

 

[wayfaring]

Hi Larry,

I'll start a new thread in this forum called "Our Heavenly Father" and we can discuss some of these issues there, okay?

For the sake of the discussion, I'll share my side from "within the camp" as opposed to being an agnostic.

Your input is welcome.

wayfaring

 

[Carico]

Hi all,

I wanted to put this in "Unequally Yoked" but the forum engine said I was the wrong color to post there.

This is probably going to be a strange question for this forum but maybe some of you have been down this road and can offer me some objective advice.

I am an agnostic who is married to a wonderful Christian lady. I was a conservative, fundamentalist, bible-believing Christian for 32 years. So is my wife. But I've left Christianity because 1) I find too many contradictions in the bible 2) I don't find God's character to be one of love 3) I've never discovered any proof that would lend substantiation to my faith and 4) I cannot follow the teachings of Christ.

All of that to say, I don't mind my wife practising Christianity and raising our two children that way. However, she has reminded me of my marriage vows to provide a "Christian" home and to raise our children in Christianity. I cannot, in good conscience, do so. Nor do I want to be a hypocrite by attending church when my heart is no longer there.

On the other hand, I love my wife and children dearly and do not want to lose them. Have any of you who are Christians found a way to live peaceably with an unbelieving spouse? Or did you find it necessary to get a divorce because the ideologies are not the same? Can an unequally yoked marriage work or are the hurdles too many and too high to enjoy a good relationship?

Any thoughts?

wayfaring

All i can say is that if you are that assured that you know better than Jesus about heaven, hell, truth, fiction, right, and wrong, then by all means pass your wisdom along to your children. But you are also responsible for how you affect their lives. Sadly, they are victims of your arrognace.

 

[wayfaring]

Thanks for your well-thought out response. But better that I raise them to think than that the church raise them to believe that God is a sadist.

wayfaring

 

[Carico]

Thanks for your well-thought out response. But better that I raise them to think than that the church raise them to believe that God is a sadist.

wayfaring

So what is it that you do teach your children? That you know better than Christ or that he knows better than you do?

 

[wayfaring]

Carico,

Don't worry, I'll make sure that they know EXACTLY what Jesus taught:

1. Cut off your hands and gouge out your eyes (Matt 5:29)

2. Don't resist evil people, let them have their way with you (Matt 5:39)

3. Let people control you (Matt 5:40)

4. Give anything you have to anyone who asks for it (Matt 5:42)

5. Don't save any money (Matt 6:19)

6. Don't make any plans for tomorrow (Matt 6:34)

7. Let people rob you blind (Luke 6:30)

8. Sell everything you have (Luke 12:33)

9. Don't work to eat (John 6:36)

10. Jesus came to bring violence (Matt 10:34)

11. Hate your father and mother (Luke 14:26)

12. Drink poison, handle snakes, and heal the sick to prove your faith (Mark 16:18)

Of course I don't know better than Jesus. These teachings make Him an excellent role model for children, don't they?

wayfaring

 

[Carico]

And what are your solutions? The first example you gave was of course ommitting the most important part of the phrase which was that it is better to gouge out our eye than to let sin cast you into hell. But maybe, having both of your eyes is preferable to you than eternal suffering. You obviously don't understand the phrase; "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"

2. And what is your solution to evil people? kill all of them? or Jesus's way which is to not give them the power to make you angry.

3. How can anyone control you? No one can keep you from thinking and feeling anything you want to! Your decisions about your behavior come from your least stressful option. They are completely and totally yours to bear.

4. And what's your solution? To hold onto material things for yourself? What good will they do you except to keep you dependant on them? How is that giving to others?

5. And what's your solution? greed? How can money save your soul? Or don't you value your soul?

6. And who says you are entitled to live tomorrow? you? I literally owe my life to God for giving me life! He owes ME nothing!

7. Again, how will hoarding material possessions bring you eternal life?

8. You seem to want to store up treasures on earth that can break and people can steal. refer to number 7.

9. Jesus does NOT say that we aren't supposed to work! He says that it is God who is allowing us to live, eat, work, etc., not our omnipotent selves.

10. what violence did Jesus commit? He simply KNOWS that people will hate him because he convicts them of sin. How is that HIS fault? He came to tell the truth. if people don't want to hear it, then they will commit violence, pure and simple. But Jesus told us the truth so that we can be saved from our sins. those who care little for their souls will not listen to him. How interesting though, that they cannot just ignore Him. The Jews killed him hoping his words would go away. And the same hate exists in people who do not want to listen to Him.

11. How can one properly love their "loved ones" if they don't know what love is in the first place? that is why Jesus says that if we love people more than God then we are not worthy of him. How can your loved ones give you eternal life? How can you give it to them by asking them to love you morew than Jesus?

12. Again, you are misqinterpreting that ohrase. Jesus never tells us to go out and DO those things. he said that we simply have the power to do those. we don not need to test that power. Those who have to test it, don't believe it in the first place!

Since you have twisted all of Jesus's words, I feel sorry for your children. Only when you receive the Holy Spirit can you understand them. until then, you will teach your children your twisted version. Again, sadly, they will suffer deeply for it.

 

[wayfaring]

Hey, Carico, these are JESUS' teachings, not MINE.

If you have a problem with them, take it up with HIM, not me.

If you have to explain what He said, then that simply means that you don't think He meant what He said. Or it means that He preferred to speak in riddles, in which case none of us can understand what He really meant.

If you don't believe He meant what He said, then you don't believe His teachings anymore than I do. And that is precisely why Christianity has to have "apologetics" -- someone needs to apologize for the way that Christianity portrays God. So how about getting off my back, huh?

wayfaring

 

[Carico]

I have zero problem with his words. It is YOU who challenges them. I agree with all of them! Again, you are saying the he is wrong and you are right. Again, if you think you know better than he does, you are simply responsible for what you teach others, including your children. You have not quoted him properly, nor read the rest of his words that clearly explain their meaning. You have also shown that you value greed, and he has clearly shown that he does not. You have also shown that you are not sincerely interested in understanding Jesus's words but merely trying to show that he is a liar and that you know better than he does. Sorry, but you're way off base and this will only lead you to become more arrogant. I'll pray for you, your children, and your wife.

 

[wayfaring]

You are simply responsible for what you teach others, including your children.

I'll pray for you, your children, and your wife.

Yes, I am responsible. Thank Go...goodness. I don't need your prayers, Carico. If God is sovereign, your begging Him to send me to hell (so that my children don't also go there) won't change a thing. God does what He wants to do. That's what makes Him God.

If I end up in hell, I end up in hell. But God will have lied if He puts me there. Love is always seeking the highest good for the one loved. It is not loving for God to put someone into everlasting torment. Just? I still don't think so. But it certainly isn't love. And God claims to be love. Go figure.

On the other hand, I won't pray for you because I have no one to pray to. I am not about to ask something on your behalf from a god who can only be glorified when others are suffering eternally. There is no telling what would happen if I prayed to such a deity.

Take care.

wayfaring

 

[Carico]

Yes, I am responsible. Thank Go...goodness. I don't need your prayers, Carico. If God is sovereign, your begging Him to send me to hell (so that my children don't also go there) won't change a thing. God does what He wants to do. That's what makes Him God.

On the other hand, I won't pray for you because I have no one to pray to. I am not about to ask something on your behalf from a god who can only be glorified when others are suffering eternally. There is no telling what would happen if I prayed to such a deity.

Take care.

wayfaring

"For out of the overflow of the heart , the mouth speaks." Right now your heart is so bitter and angry that it will last forever if you don't see what YOU'RE doing to perpetuate it. Jesus died for you but that will do you no good if you slap him in the face for it.

 

[larryicr]

I don't need your prayers, Carico. If God is sovereign, your begging Him to send me to hell (so that my children don't also go there) won't change a thing. God does what He wants to do. That's what makes Him God.

Prayer is not a means of "changing" God's mind or forcing Him into something. Prayer is a way for us to draw closer to God and be on His side in matters. If God puts on my heart He wants someone to be saved, I will pray for that person. Sure it would get done anyway, but if i pray for it then i am on God's side in the matter. Prayer is to be according to His will, not in order to shape His will.

If I end up in hell, I end up in hell. But God will have lied if He puts me there. Love is always seeking the highest good for the one loved.

He would have lied if you don't end up there after rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior. His love is found in Jesus, and you are the one who rejects it. He has not only sought your highest good, but also done all the work for you. You are the one who rejects Him, and you should at least take responsibility for yourself in this.

God claims to be love.

That's only 1 dimension of God, He is not "only" love. He his also just and holy, and that's the reason you cannot be in His presence without being washed of your sins. It may even be that being in Hell would be better for an unwashed sinner than being in the presence of God - His holiness would utterly destroy you.

I am not about to ask something on your behalf from a god who can only be glorified when others are suffering eternally.

Who said He can "only" be glorified by eternal suffering? Yes, He is glorified through His just condemnation - because it is just, not because of the suffering. But He is also glorified by His mercy upon the redeemed.

If i am walking along with my son, he may fall. That doesn't mean that I pushed him. But being his father I will pick him up and help him when he does fall. And so we may fall even though God is right beside us, but He is there with us to carry us.

God has done so much for you. He has died on a cross for you.
What have you done for Him - called Him unloving, hated Him.

You will not have any peace without God.