Age of the earth/dates of creation arguments do not really matter to our salvation

[erich]

I may be wrong, that's why I wanted to post this and discuss the possibilities

This is also real life, it's what I just chose to tell my 12 year old daughter this morning while getting ready for her to attend school at a private Baptist school, where they are really drilling the "5K years max age or your interpretation of the bible may be wrong and your conscience in jeopardy" mode of blending science and religion. I enjoy sending her there, in the footsteps of where I grew up, it's just the science thing means more to me now than possibly it should, but I feel an inner pull to start the truth now, the truth being we don't know how old the earth is but it sure is fun to look and that's about all it matters. I felt it was time to differentiate in my child a church's ability to connect and educate one about God and helping others with their ability to conduct scientific interpretation of the natural world without update.

Im feeling challenged, I have been a Baptist for most of my life and I was told exactly that in about 3 different Baptist schools from age 10-30+ only to find out as an adult I think very differently, and that in fact to disagree on scientific points with the church and someone else's interpretation of 'limits' does not relenquish one's salvation, it makes the journey and discovery all that much more savory.



This means for my child that man lived with all the dinosaurs ever discovered and yet to be discovered, at the same time, they all just ran around working miracles and dodging predation until the flood came and killed all the dinosaurs along with all the documentation we cohabitated. all the current evidence suggesting these two eras are eons apart is the same literature tied to mockery of Christ and paganism. This is exactly what I have been told in more than one Baptist establishment, and other than a few contextual tweaks I doubt any corrections to this notion will alter significantly but pleast post if I've missed something!!!


Being taught like this through the 80's created a life long conflict for me, the way I was told how to interpret the blending of science and religion in someone elses' manner because it was all or nothing. But God made me a scientist at heart, and one in practice, so he put that in me and nurtured in me a new way of studing God, and creation, through great science which is not evil and if the church is wrong about the age of the earth that's okay, they were wrong on heretic evaluation and torture too we just strive to get better and more accurate. What stays though the ages in John 3:16 and the Ten Commandments, maybe we should make these the undebatables of our Christian foundation


*Does anyone here know of a scripture I can reference for age of earth issues, that is written as clear and free of allegory as the pathway of salvation J3:16? That's the clearest scripture I've ever read, its the basis of my testimony (how clear it is to me) and I need something in a couple sentences to really strike me about the proven age of creation if you can help!


All the age-of-earth proof I had ever been shown was familial line dating interpreted directly from the scripture bloodlines, compiled from mixed sections of the Bible by dating scholars, and from that they took in the seven days of creation and made a timeline that is now indisputable to purists of religion, right? Im looking for an age of earth scripture thats solid, where no mode of interpretation or language transmission could alter the actual meaning.

Evolution hasn't even been mentioned I expect it will take another ten years to become objective enough to ratify that one with how I see creation and salvation...for now I'll settle to know the factual age of the earth, now who out there is sure please chime in!

I stake my entire salvation every day that John 3:16 is the bet, all else is conjecture and a mode of interpretation. If that's not the case I have really missed out.
E

 

[erich]

on a shorter and possibly more cynical note the first thing I noticed when logging in to post was where it says "Blessings" in the upper right and then "Purchase" right next to it. Im just sayin you aren't helping skeptics with that layout, move your links around already!! its ironic for someone to see that who showed up mad at the establishment lol great comedic timing it made me cool off a little.

thanks for the lift and I haven't even got responses yet


E

 

[DeaconDean]

There is a lot discussion as to the relivence of the "age of the earth".

I'm approaching 50 years old and was taught from a very early age to reject all the theories regarding "evolution". Not to memntion all the facts that support the data which point to the fact that wherever dinosaur fossels are found, no "human" remains have ever been found along side them.

Another "sore" point in the whole "literal 6 day creation" theory.

Most people look at the word day in the Genesis accounts and believe in a literal "6; 24 hour, day" literal days in creating the world and everything in this universe. And if that is what you believe, fine, I won't argue against it.

Most people also look at other verse of the Bible and see passages which speak of a day being as a thousand years to God. And if that is what you believe, fine I'll not argue against that either.

For, it certainly is possible for God to create everything we know of within 6 literal days, and it is also quite possible for God as the Omnipotent Almightty, to have created everything within a micro-second of saying "Create the heavens and earth".

Either theory has merit and are acceptable.

But...but...here is where I think people miss the main point of the Genesis creation account.

It is not important to us how long it took to create everything, as it is who it was who did it to begin with!

As I said, to me personally, I don't need to know the mechanics of how it came into being, or how long it took it to come into being as it is who did it to begin with. That is the emphasis of the Genesis creation account to me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[dies-l]

There is a lot discussion as to the relivence of the "age of the earth".

I'm approaching 50 years old and was taught from a very early age to reject all the theories regarding "evolution". Not to memntion all the facts that support the data which point to the fact that wherever dinosaur fossels are found, no "human" remains have ever been found along side them.

Another "sore" point in the whole "literal 6 day creation" theory.

Most people look at the word day in the Genesis accounts and believe in a literal "6; 24 hour, day" literal days in creating the world and everything in this universe. And if that is what you believe, fine, I won't argue against it.

Most people also look at other verse of the Bible and see passages which speak of a day being as a thousand years to God. And if that is what you believe, fine I'll not argue against that either.

For, it certainly is possible for God to create everything we know of within 6 literal days, and it is also quite possible for God as the Omnipotent Almightty, to have created everything within a micro-second of saying "Create the heavens and earth".

Either theory has merit and are acceptable.

But...but...here is where I think people miss the main point of the Genesis creation account.

It is not important to us how long it took to create everything, as it is who it was who did it to begin with!

As I said, to me personally, I don't need to know the mechanics of how it came into being, or how long it took it to come into being as it is who did it to begin with. That is the emphasis of the Genesis creation account to me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

What he said

 

[erich]

Hey that's cool of you guys regarding these reconciliations, nice not to be alone. im 34 if that matters...

I welcome the other side of the argument to test my ideas too, embarassingly in all that time in situ I didn't learn my scriptures as well as the next so can anyone out there refer me to age of earth scripture? I would gladly switch sides, in fact that would lessen guilt, but without logic I cannot. Im not here to postulate a billions-old universe Im just saying the totality of evidence does not show that to me like John 3:16 shows the way with such clarity. I am seeing how the earth can be a billion+ old as well and it doesnt really wreck my view on the Lord. his timing is a wonder. Maybe this is three pages of a plea for scripture mixed w a little frustration

 

[rmccubbin]

How much more clear does "In six days..." need to be to be understandable? Science tells us dead men don't rise from the grave. Do we have license to allegorize the resurrection of our risen Lord too? What all should we throw out of the Bible or reinterpret according to the authority of "Science"?

 

[katautumn]

It is not important to us how long it took to create everything, as it is who it was who did it to begin with!

AMEN!

 

[Bob Jones Student]

I wouldn't certainly put the earth older than maybe 12,000 years... It may seem strange, however, following the Biblical genealogies, and allowing for some gaps between them, you probably cannot get that much further.

Regarding gaps in the genealogies, it was a legitimate thing for them to do back then, but I don't believe they would skip 500 generations or anything... they might have say for instance listed Cain begot so and so, and the children between Cain and so and so are a few removed and so forth. At the very minimal, if we only go by the genealogies, the earth isn't more than 7,000 years old.

Regarding Dinosaurs... remember God cursed the Earth when Adam sinned, this would have included possible genetic changes in everything... seriously... could not the curse also brought massive instantaneous genetic changes to allow the animals that never ate meat, to instantly eat meat... think about it... this understanding really helped me. It's all because of the curse.

Also, regarding Dinosaurs, there are several spots in the Bible that talk about Dinosaurs... look at the end of Job. Also there are some mentioned spots about Dragons... so there was something back then.

Also, maybe Dinosaurs weren't all that plentiful... and thus maybe Dinosaurs and humans stayed far away from each other, thus the Dinosaurs wouldn't have eaten the humans. Remember, to our ancestors Dinosaurs wouldn't have been something odd to them, they would have known of their existence and would have just been another animal.

 

[DeaconDean]

I wouldn't certainly put the earth older than maybe 12,000 years... It may seem strange, however, following the Biblical genealogies, and allowing for some gaps between them, you probably cannot get that much further.

Regarding gaps in the genealogies, it was a legitimate thing for them to do back then, but I don't believe they would skip 500 generations or anything... they might have say for instance listed Cain begot so and so, and the children between Cain and so and so are a few removed and so forth. At the very minimal, if we only go by the genealogies, the earth isn't more than 7,000 years old.

Regarding Dinosaurs... remember God cursed the Earth when Adam sinned, this would have included possible genetic changes in everything... seriously... could not the curse also brought massive instantaneous genetic changes to allow the animals that never ate meat, to instantly eat meat... think about it... this understanding really helped me. It's all because of the curse.

Also, regarding Dinosaurs, there are several spots in the Bible that talk about Dinosaurs... look at the end of Job. Also there are some mentioned spots about Dragons... so there was something back then.

Also, maybe Dinosaurs weren't all that plentiful... and thus maybe Dinosaurs and humans stayed far away from each other, thus the Dinosaurs wouldn't have eaten the humans. Remember, to our ancestors Dinosaurs wouldn't have been something odd to them, they would have known of their existence and would have just been another animal.

Just from reading what you have posted, I take it your a supporter of the "Gap Theory"?

Also, regarding the book of Job, do we know for sure that the leviathan is a dinosaur?

Leviathan (pronounced /lɨˈvaɪ.əθən/; Hebrew: [FONT=David, Narkisim, Arial]לִוְיָתָן,[/FONT] Modern Livyatan Tiberian Liwyāṯān ; "twisted, coiled"), is a sea monster referred to in the Tanakh and the Bible. In Demonology, Leviathan is one of the seven princes of Hell and its gatekeeper (see Hellmouth). The word leviathan has become synonymous with any large sea monster or creature. In modern literature (such as the novel Moby-Dick) it refers to great whales, and in Modern Hebrew, it means simply "whale."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan

The book of Job also mentions an animal that is considered to be mythological: the unicorn.

1. Job 39:9
   Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
   Job 39:8-10 (in Context) Job 39 (Whole Chapter)
2. Job 39:10
   Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
   Job 39:9-11 (in Context) Job 39 (Whole Chapter)
3. Psalm 22:21
   Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
   Psalm 22:20-22 (in Context) Psalm 22 (Whole Chapter)
4. Psalm 29:6
   He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
   Psalm 29:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 29 (Whole Chapter)
5. Psalm 92:10
   But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
   Psalm 92:9-11 (in Context) Psalm 92 (Whole Chapter)

How come no fossels of unicorns have been found?

But hey, don't listen to me, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm so stupid that I believe Job wrote the book of Job.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Oddi725]

The "Dinosaur fossils have never been found with human fossils" is really really really dumb. I'm sorry. Who in the right mind would start a village near DINOSAURS? We live in the same world as Lions, Tigers and Bears, Oh my! I have yet to encounter any of them in my life other than a zoo and I doubt there were zoos back then. Thats all I'm saying. That excuse is ludicrous. No one in the right mind is going to start a family in Dinosaur territory. Its common sense. Just like no one is going to build a house next to a pack of wolves. All I'm saying. As for the "It doesn't really matter" I agree to an extend. When it comes to finding salvation, you find it through Christ. If you believe Christ is the Son of God then you're fine. It gets ugly when you start questioning God's word due to "science".

 

[Bob Jones Student]

No, no I don't believe in the gap theory, I was just stating that there might be small "gaps" in the genealogies of the scripture, which was legitimate for them to do.

 

[EdMa]

In Respone to the Earth created in 6 days theory, I believe we must understand that God does not see time as we does, 6 days for him could be a THOUSAND of years for us.

I just want to put that out there.

 

[DeaconDean]

The "Dinosaur fossils have never been found with human fossils" is really really really dumb. I'm sorry. Who in the right mind would start a village near DINOSAURS? We live in the same world as Lions, Tigers and Bears, Oh my! I have yet to encounter any of them in my life other than a zoo and I doubt there were zoos back then. Thats all I'm saying. That excuse is ludicrous. No one in the right mind is going to start a family in Dinosaur territory. Its common sense. Just like no one is going to build a house next to a pack of wolves. All I'm saying. As for the "It doesn't really matter" I agree to an extend. When it comes to finding salvation, you find it through Christ. If you believe Christ is the Son of God then you're fine. It gets ugly when you start questioning God's word due to "science".

Oh...so the pre-historic man made settlements far away from dinosaurs?

Go to the basalt flats in Montana and dig down, or just look down at the ground. You'll find fossels all over the place.

How come amongst all those fossels, there has no once been found any trace of human remains?

Go to any fossel dig, and you'll find out that usually about 6" to 12" higher up are where "human" remains are found.

The "Dinosaur fossils have never been found with human fossils" is really really really dumb.

It might be, but you know what?..Its true!

And, who is:

questioning God's word due to "science".

More About Dinosaurs, by Ian Taylor

Did man and dinosaur live at the same time? According to the theory of evolution the dinosaurs became extinct at least 60 million years before the appearance of man, thus man and dinosaur could not have been contemporaneous. In contrast, according to Scripture, the beasts of the earth were made on the sixth day, only hours before Adam (Genesis 1:24 - 27). The book of Job (40:15) mentions "Behemoth," an untranslated Hebrew word and, from the description given, this would seem to nicely describe the Diplodocus. While some Bible footnotes suggest that Behemoth was an elephant this is highly unlikely since the elephant does not have anything like the tail described as "a cedar." Job (41:19-20) also has another untranslated Hebrew word "Leviathan" that is said to breathe fire from its nostrils. This sounds very much like the legends of fire-breathing dragons found throughout almost every culture. Is this possible? The Bombardier beetle (Brachinus americanus) has a mechanism whereby it is able to generate 28% hydrogen peroxide solution and mix this with hydroquinone in a special explosion sac. When the beetle is attacked, an enzyme triggers the explosive reaction of these mixed chemicals and very hot gases are shot out of a nozzle at the rear end of the beetle. This is a very effective defense mechanism and it would seem reasonable to assume that some dinosaurs may have had a similar mechanism. The duck-billed hadrosaur, for example, had no teeth but its fossil head has some strange passageways within its unusual bony dome which led from the throat area to the nostril. Just possibly these were used for breathing fire. The Chinese have records of large animals that could breathe fire and were kept for ceremonial occasions. The seventh century A.D. Saxon story of Beowolf is required reading for students of English literature and contains a description of the monster, Grendel, that perfectly fits a T. rex. Interestingly, because of the controversy, modern paperback editions of Beowolf, often leave out this description which appears in the first chapter of the book.

Did the dinosaurs go on the ark? Most, if not all, dinosaurs were hatched from eggs and thus began life quite small. Genesis 6:20 and 7:14-16 tells us that the Lord brought the creatures into the ark and it would seem perfectly reasonable that He would bring in only young, healthy specimens in order to begin the new generation. Every dinosaur fossil found so far appear to have been the victim of drowning in a catastrophic flood. Following the Genesis Flood, those dinosaurs from the ark began to multiply and dispersed throughout several continents. In time, as they grew larger and more numerous, they became a menace and it seems most likely that man, in an organized and systematic effort, has killed them off with the possibility that only a few are now left in isolated parts of the earth.

Creation Moments, As heard on BBN (Bible Believers Network)

Creation Moments - Home of "Creation Moments" daily two-minute radio broadcast

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Oddi725]

It might be, but you know what?..Its true!

I'm saying thats a dumb excuse. I know its true, but thats a dumb excuse. It's also true fish live in the water. But if I asked why people don't live under water and someone said "because fish live in the water" that would be true, but its still a dumb excuse. Thats all I'm saying. Its a lousy excuse.

And about human remains being found 6' to 12' above dinosaurs. That could very easily be because people migrated there AFTER the dinosaurs were gone. It would be safe for them. If I destroy a forest where wolves lived and build a house there, that doesn't mean I never lived the same time as the wolf. I wouldn't of lived there with the wolves, but the forest was cut down and the wolves fled or died, so I migrated there.

 

[DeaconDean]

I'm saying thats a dumb excuse. I know its true, but thats a dumb excuse. It's also true fish live in the water. But if I asked why people don't live under water and someone said "because fish live in the water" that would be true, but its still a dumb excuse. Thats all I'm saying. Its a lousy excuse.

And about human remains being found 6' to 12' above dinosaurs. That could very easily be because people migrated there AFTER the dinosaurs were gone. It would be safe for them. If I destroy a forest where wolves lived and build a house there, that doesn't mean I never lived the same time as the wolf. I wouldn't of lived there with the wolves, but the forest was cut down and the wolves fled or died, so I migrated there.

One last point and I'll stop.

The Bible says:

"And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female." -Gen. 6:19 (KJV)

Since your an advocte of dinosaurs living at the same time as mankind:

No one in the right mind is going to start a family in Dinosaur territory. Its common sense.

Where are the "dinosaurs" that Noah took into the ark?

Oh wait, perhaps God condemned them to die during the flood. Hum...

All I am saying is that you cannot prove that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, and on the other hand, I can't prove that they didn't.

But if one can find the bones of ancient humans, and one can find bones of dinosuars, and if they lived together, why are they not found together? Rather, in close proximity of each other?

And here again, if you believe dinosaurs existed on the basis of the words "leviathan" and "behemouth", then why have we not found the remains of the "unicorn"? (cf. Job 39:9-10; Psa. 22:21; 29:6; 92:10)

The Bible records their existance does it not?

Why weren't they on the Ark? Another species God decided wasn't worthy of living after the flood?

I don't know how anybody else feels, but for me, God is Ominpotent. All-Powerful. It certainly is within the capability of the Sovereign Lord to merely speak the universe and everything associated with it into being by merely speaking.

It is certainly within His power to create everything in a nano-second. Who cares if it took 6 seconds, or 6 minutes, or 6 hours, 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, or 6 thousand years, or even 6 billion years to create the world. That is not the important part of Genesis 1-2. The imporatant emphasis is not on how long it took, or how it came into being, the important thing is who did it to begin with.

And science has yet to dispell what the Bible teaches.

It was God the Father who did according to His own will and purposes.

I don't know the wherefors, or whys, but someday I will.

Fault me all you will. Call my points a "dumb excuse" or "really really really lame", but it is fact.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[dies-l]

But if one can find the bones of ancient humans, and one can find bones of dinosuars, and if they lived together, why are they not found together? Rather, in close proximity of each other?

Not only that, but why are dinosaur bones never found in proximity to fossils of other less intelligent modern species. Are we to believe that all modern species (ranging from elephants to flowering plants) all isolated themselves from the dinosaurs?

I don't know how anybody else feels, but for me, God is Ominpotent. All-Powerful. It certainly is within the capability of the Sovereign Lord to merely speak the universe and everything associated with it into being by merely speaking.

It is certainly within His power to create everything in a nano-second. Who cares if it took 6 seconds, or 6 minutes, or 6 hours, 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, or 6 thousand years, or even 6 billion years to create the world. That is not the important part of Genesis 1-2. The imporatant emphasis is not on how long it took, or how it came into being, the important thing is who did it to begin with.

And science has yet to dispell what the Bible teaches.

It was God the Father who did according to His own will and purposes.

I don't know the wherefors, or whys, but someday I will.

Fault me all you will. Call my points a "dumb excuse" or "really really really lame", but it is fact.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well said God did it! On that we can agree and on that Scripture is clear. How long it took and how He did it is a matter of interpretation, and I for one am content to accept reasonable scientific explanation.

 

[Oddi725]

One last point and I'll stop.

The Bible says:

"And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female." -Gen. 6:19 (KJV)

Since your an advocte of dinosaurs living at the same time as mankind:



Where are the "dinosaurs" that Noah took into the ark?

Oh wait, perhaps God condemned them to die during the flood. Hum...

All I am saying is that you cannot prove that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, and on the other hand, I can't prove that they didn't.

But if one can find the bones of ancient humans, and one can find bones of dinosuars, and if they lived together, why are they not found together? Rather, in close proximity of each other?

And here again, if you believe dinosaurs existed on the basis of the words "leviathan" and "behemouth", then why have we not found the remains of the "unicorn"? (cf. Job 39:9-10; Psa. 22:21; 29:6; 92:10)

The Bible records their existance does it not?

Why weren't they on the Ark? Another species God decided wasn't worthy of living after the flood?

I don't know how anybody else feels, but for me, God is Ominpotent. All-Powerful. It certainly is within the capability of the Sovereign Lord to merely speak the universe and everything associated with it into being by merely speaking.

It is certainly within His power to create everything in a nano-second. Who cares if it took 6 seconds, or 6 minutes, or 6 hours, 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, or 6 thousand years, or even 6 billion years to create the world. That is not the important part of Genesis 1-2. The imporatant emphasis is not on how long it took, or how it came into being, the important thing is who did it to begin with.

And science has yet to dispell what the Bible teaches.

It was God the Father who did according to His own will and purposes.

I don't know the wherefors, or whys, but someday I will.

Fault me all you will. Call my points a "dumb excuse" or "really really really lame", but it is fact.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Like your quote said, Dinosaurs came from eggs, so the babies are small. I don't think its quite farfetched to think there were baby dinosaurs on the ark. And I'm sorry I came off offensive. I wasn't trying to make this a huge debate. All I thought that was dumb was that one line "Why are dinosaur and human fossils never found together". I wasn't trying to attack your whole side. I agree with many things you've said. IMO, I happen to think dinosaur fossils and human fossils not being found together isn't a very good point. BUT it doesn't really matter does it? All that matters is that our faith is in God and we live to glorify him. God bless, and I again apologize for coming off offensive.

 

[trentlogain2]

1 Timothy 1:4

"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."

 

[leothelioness]

This is also real life, it's what I just chose to tell my 12 year old daughter this morning while getting ready for her to attend school at a private Baptist school, where they are really drilling the "5K years max age or your interpretation of the bible may be wrong and your conscience in jeopardy" mode of blending science and religion.

*shudder*

I would never send my child to a school like that. I'm an OEC myself as there is nowhere in the Bible that states the Earth was created in six literal days. Time was not even a concept then. Also, the fact that 1 day to God could possibly be 1,000 or even 1,000,000 years to us.

But, you're correct that whatever we choose to believe regarding that has no real bearing on our salvation. Anyone who believes such drivel, I would seriously question.

 

[faceofbear]

Personally I believe it's rather clear it was created in 6 literal days and to interpret beyond that is quite a stretch especially considering no one else considers days/years any different than we consider them now. Though it's not important to salvation, I'd say it's quite important to the authority of the Bible which is intended for the salvation of man so indirectly it does effect it. Though I'd say the gap theory is possible, it is highly unlikely. Namely because the earth was void, so though the earth was formless & void I'd say the void is possible to be x amount of years old, but for anything that is existent on earth to day, I don't see it to be even possible for it to be given beyond 6,000 years except perhaps water and light/dark. Given that this was the only thing mentioned. Everything else seems to be literal 24 hour days undisputedly, though I reckon it doesn't matter for salvation, it does matter to the authority and give reason to question everything else said in the Bible and examine it more in depth to perhaps realize that we are wrong about everything else. Just my skeptical opinion.