Age of accountability

[KCDAD]

I know of KCDAD's Christian credentials, or lack thereof.

What does whether or not one is a Christian have to do with understanding the Bible?

Is it in some kinda secret code that only certain kinds of Christians are given a secret decoder ring to translate it?

 

[DarkProphet]

What does whether or not one is a Christian have to do with understanding the Bible?

It doesn't, but it does affect interpretation. This is why I want different viewpoints to answer my questions. As a non-Nicene Christian you are outside the norm here.

Is it in some kinda secret code that only certain kinds of Christians are given a secret decoder ring to translate it?

Some Christians believe that in a literal sense, spending their lives trying to "decode" the Bible using varies ancient cryptographic methods. Most just seem to think that a vast amount of "context" knowledge is required to "properly" interpret it.

 

[DarkProphet]

David didn't believe heaven or hell. He believed in Sheol: The Grave. That is where he was going to "meet" his son. His son was dead. Gone. Period. David was also going to be dead. Gone. Period.
Unbelievable how people constantly add things to the Bible and then wonder why it is so confusing....

I'm unfamiliar with this part of the Bible but this interpretation does make more sense then the others.

 

[KCDAD]

DarkProphet: It doesn't, but it does affect interpretation. This is why I want different viewpoints to answer my questions. As a non-Nicene Christian you are outside the norm here.

Well duh, this has got to be as obvious a statement of truth as anything.

If I believe everything Rush Limbaugh says, I will not listen to anything he says in context... I will just wait for the next drip of honey from his lips...

Certainly here I am "unconventional"... I really wish Jesus were to here to discuss the Nicene Creed!

 

[Zunalter]

I know of KCDAD's Christian credentials, or lack thereof. Still, that you discount him on that basis alone, how judgemental.

I wasn't attempting to be judgmental, just pointing out the fact that for the most part, Christian orthodoxy is not generally represented by moderate or liberal churches. Thus, if you were seeking an answer that stems from the POV of orthodoxy (inspired scripture, inerrancy, etc...) that there would be better and worse sources for that information. Someone who doesn't believe scripture is from God would obviously not care a whole lot about what the Bible says on any given subject. That's why I would discount their opinion to represent Christianity, because they do not generally accept the source orthodox Christianity would pull its answer from.

That doesn't help much because it doesn't answer why his son went to heaven. Was is because he was sinless (in a time BEFORE Jesus) or was it because God was merciful toward some children? I say some because like I said in a previous post God murdered and ordered the murder of numerous children in the Bible.

Well, the children were probably killed so they wouldn't grow up and seek revenge, or continue their idol worship or whatever. Considering that a lot of these cultures burned their children on altars to their gods, I think that the death the Israelites gave them was merciful to say the least. However, that doesn't mean that they ended up in hell. Since Christianity is based around putting our trust in the Christ and His propitiatory work for us, we have to ask the question "What about those who were mentally incapable of comprehending those choices?" I am just not convinced that God would send a child to hell that, so to speak, didn't qualify for His program.

But, like I said, the Bible is not 100% clear on this.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The age of accountability starts when one is able to control their sinful nature. God wouldn't require of a person something that they are unable to do.

owg

 

[seashale76]

According to Christian doctrine everyone is a sinner, even babies, but some doctrines seem to temper this by saying there is an "age of accountability". Where does this idea come from and where does this "age of accountability" start for people?

Nobody is born depraved. We are all born with the consequence of sin, which is death. However, yes, it is a Christian belief that we all are sinners. Sin is 'missing the mark' and is anything that keeps us from living completely in accord with God's will.

Infants are baptized and communed in the Orthodox Church. Baptism is being 'born again' and in that act we are cleansed of our sins. Those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. It is this act that brings one into the saving ark of the Church.

The parents and godparents of a child are responsible for acting on the child's behalf that they will raise that particular child to be a servant of Christ and in the Church. We commune infants because (like adults) we all need the medicine of immortality. Hopefully, when children grow older, they will then personally choose to continue working out their salvation in Christ's Holy Church until their race is finished. The Church being the saving ark means that we see salvation in a very corporate way.

As far as an 'age of accountability' is concerned, this is an idea that goes hand in hand with 'believer's only baptism' and that baptism is only 'a public declaration of a personal decision'. It didn't exist before the Protestant Reformation.

 

[chilehed]

I brought up the four year old because he is a neighborhood boy that has a lot of bad influences around him (older brothers). He likely did not know that stealing was wrong, or even that it was stealing. Yet when I brought this up with a Christian friend of mine he said that it was still a sin. All sins worthy of hell in his eyes. This seems rather unfair all things considered.

There are two things to consider.

One thing is the objective moral state of the act. Is it objectively wrong to take another person's property without permission? Yes. So objectively, the child commited a sin.

The other thing to consider is culpability: was the person's state of mind such that his responsibility for committing the act was mitigated? For example, was he unable to discern that the act was wrong due to his age or mental infirmity? Or perhaps he's from a family of kleptomaniacs and his morals have been malformed through no fault of his own? Was he unable to freely chose to not do it due to some duress (perhaps he had to do it or else his older brothers would beat him)?

I've mentioned some extreme examples, but the extreme examples most easily illustrate the point. Sin is by definition "an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience", "a failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods", and "disobedience to God". You can see by this that the mental state of the person is very important in determining the subjective sinfulness of an act. One cannot disobey unless one first knows and then freely chooses.

 

[KCDAD]

The age of accountability starts when one is able to control their sinful nature. God wouldn't require of a person something that they are unable to do.

owg

CONTROL THEIR SINFUL NATURE????? Where did this idea come from...

we are "totally depraved sinners, unable to control our evil ways without the blood of Christ and the influence of The Holy Spirit."

Who can "control" their sinful nature?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

CONTROL THEIR SINFUL NATURE????? Where did this idea come from...

we are "totally depraved sinners, unable to control our evil ways without the blood of Christ and the influence of The Holy Spirit."

Who can "control" their sinful nature?

God instructed Cain (and all of us) to do just that:

Genesis 4

:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Even though Cain didn't have the enabling holy spirit God told him that he must rule over-control-his sinful nature, in order to be accepted by God. Recall that Paul lamented that he often fell to this other law in his members, i.e. his sinful nature. It is a continuous struggle, and while we sometimes lose we are able to control it. Having the sinful nature is not a sin. Succumbing to it is.

owg

 

[seashale76]

God instructed Cain (and all of us) to do just that:

Genesis 4

:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Even though Cain didn't have the enabling holy spirit God told him that he must rule over-control-his sinful nature, in order to be accepted by God. Recall that Paul lamented that he often fell to this other law in his members, i.e. his sinful nature. It is a continuous struggle, and while we sometimes lose we are able to control it. Having the sinful nature is not a sin. Succumbing to it is.

owg

You're right. Logismoi (bad thoughts) don't have to lead to sin. One can combat and control such thoughts via noetic prayer.

 

[Hog Red]

That is a part of it. Most doctrines say yes and people tend to say no. This is a common contradiction but not the whole of the question. The other aspect is the moral responsibility part, some hold that babies are morally responsible for their actions, still others hold that there is an "age of accountability" that magically marks that transition, still others hold that Jesus washes away all sins and that by accepting that you are saved (the side effect is that you are NOT morally responsible at any age). It all seems so contradictory no matter how you look at it.

Reading the Bible I don't get any sense that God would have mercy on children. After all he has children murdered at several points in the Bible.

Could it be, you dont get any sense out of reading the Bible because your reading someone else's mail? Hope that didn't sound mean. Kidding aside you posed an excellent question. I am surprised the Pharisees didn't ask Jesus that very question. If you get the answer that is pleasing to you would it reallly make any difference?

 

[DarkProphet]

Could it be, you dont get any sense out of reading the Bible because your reading someone else's mail? Hope that didn't sound mean. Kidding aside you posed an excellent question. I am surprised the Pharisees didn't ask Jesus that very question. If you get the answer that is pleasing to you would it reallly make any difference?

If I got an answer that didn't contradict another aspect of Christianity then it would show one less contradiction. That doesn't seem like much but Christianity would be that much more believable without all the contradictions.

 

[Hog Red]

If I got an answer that didn't contradict another aspect of Christianity then it would show one less contradiction. That doesn't seem like much but Christianity would be that much more believable without all the contradictions.

If we all gave you the same answer would you believe it. I dont think so, you would chalk it up to some kind of conspiracy. Look you'll get just as many wrong answers as right ones, unfortunately all Christians will never agree on certain topics mainly because many who profess to be Christians are not at all. i will agree that the Christian community is messed up (by their own doing) but that doesn't invalidate God or His Word.

 

[DarkProphet]

If we all gave you the same answer would you believe it. I dont think so, you would chalk it up to some kind of conspiracy. Look you'll get just as many wrong answers as right ones, unfortunately all Christians will never agree on certain topics mainly because many who profess to be Christians are not at all. i will agree that the Christian community is messed up (by their own doing) but that doesn't invalidate God or His Word.

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by contradiction. In this case God is supposed to be just and at the same time he holds babies accountable to their actions. The idea of age of accountability fixes this contradiction but at the same time creates new ones.

 

[Hog Red]

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by contradiction. In this case God is supposed to be just and at the same time he holds babies accountable to their actions. The idea of age of accountability fixes this contradiction but at the same time creates new ones.

Contradiction as seen in your eyes.

1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit (that's you) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he (that's you) cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

BTW why do you ask questions when most of the answers require some Faith to understand. If you really are genuinelly concerned about these children's destiny that's one thing but if you merely pose questions in an effort to belittle Christians over the same ol questions from Satan's top ten list, why bother.

Ooops I see this forum is not for debates, I'm a Newbie here so forgive me. I will leave this one alone for now.

 

[DarkProphet]

Contradiction as seen in your eyes.

1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit (that's you) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he (that's you) cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Wait, you are saying that it is just to hold babies accountable for their actions and I just don't see it that why because I don't the "Spirit"?

BTW why do you ask questions when most of the answers require some Faith to understand. If you really are genuinelly concerned about these children's destiny that's one thing but if you merely pose questions in an effort to belittle Christians over the same ol questions from Satan's top ten list, why bother.

Ooops I see this forum is not for debates, I'm a Newbie here so forgive me. I will leave this one alone for now.

This board is meant for asking questions. Your reluctance to answer them is very telling itself though.

 

[Hog Red]

[/color]
Wait, you are saying that it is just to hold babies accountable for their actions and I just don't see it that why because I don't the "Spirit"?



This board is meant for asking questions. Your reluctance to answer them is very telling itself though.

Your question was already answered by another poster that I agree with and you did as well, but you haven't answered mine have you. What is the purpose of your original question? I would like to know that's all.

 

[JCFantasy23]

I think the age of accountability is not set in stone. Some kids realize things later in life than other kids, and I do not think God judges them together but apart, as He knows them. My son is just learning about God and right from wrong in some cases, he is 7. I do not think he understands sin enough to be judged well with it. I could be wrong but with how I know him, I do not think he would be held fully accountable. As for the four year old example with stealing candy, they may be told stealing is wrong but can they fully understand why? They listen and repeat at that age but likely do not have enough solid thought to formulate responsible decisions based on reasoning on their own.

Likewise it can depend on the "sin." A youngster may be taught and finally understand the concept of stealing or hitting, but what about something such as suicide, death, lying? It is hard to say.

 

[Hog Red]

Your question was already answered by another poster that I agree with and you did as well, but you haven't answered mine have you. What is the purpose of your original question? I would like to know that's all.

Anxiously waiting.