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Age of Accountability?

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OK, I know you are saying, this is a thread for Reformed folks so why is there a question about Age of Accountability? Well, as a Calvinist myself, I don't believe in an age of accountability. My children are part of God's covenant family. However, in most of the churches I have been in (mostly PCA), there seems to be some "magic age" where children are admitted as communicant members. I know there are differing schools of thought even amongst us Reformed, so as I have been studying different positions (paedocommunion, for one) I have consistently run into what seems to be (if only in my mind) a conflict. On an email group I am in, some where arguing against the Arminian position of age of accountability and it just struck me as strange. At present, I am not a pro-paedocommunist but I am sympathetic. Anything you have to offer on the subject is greatly appreciated.

CC&E
 

reformedfan

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if there was such a thing as an age of accountability, then somehow kids before that age are so magical & glorified that even the taint of Adam's sin doesn't cling to 'em, wowie! & abortion/infanticide might be the best option for families who REALLY wanted to be sure their kids go to heaven ;)

Psalm 51:5 is a better argument than the above, however.
 
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erin74

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I don't have a problem with kids going to communion - it is a symbolic reminder to us of Jesus death, and I don't see any problems with kids being reminded of this also.

I don't fully get the children are part of the covenant family bit though. I'm not trying to argue by the way - genuinely trying to understand this. I assume this comes from the concept of children being saved by their parents faith. But there seems to be a tension with individual responsiblity - cause we all know people who are not living as christians who's parents are christians - surely their parents faith does not cover them forever. Surely we are each responsible for our own faith (as given by God). That is God treats us as individuals..... I just can't work this tension out is all.... So I can see this has lead to the age of accountability thinking... yet that is obviously erroneous (sp???). Kids are obviously not devoid of sin - if you want to believe that then borrow my two for a few days and you'll work out that's wrong - they're like pure sin - cause they don't even try to fight it!!!!!

I'd really like to hear what people think on this..... I hope this isn't hijacking the thread though - sorry...
 
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My first reaction is that as Reformed folk, we say one thing but do another. I would appreciate Scriptural argument for or against, any articles on the web that might be helpful, book recomendations as well as any discussion amongst us. I have more thoughts (or maybe more accurately, more questions) but my schedule is crazy for the next couple of days. My lack of responding over the next couple of days is only because I won't be home to respond!

CC&E - PS - I have recently begun reading Calvin's Institutes for the first time so there may be something in there to answer some of my questions, and I just haven't gotten to it yet.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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In the Southern Presbyterian church I grew up in, we practiced paedo-communion as children of the Covenant Community were acknowledged as members in-training, so to speak.

If baptism is a sacrament, and means of grace, of which I am fully convinced by God's Word that it is, and we practive paedo-baptism for the same reasons, and we welcome the covenant child into the community in baptism, then the same principles of the covenant apply to paedo-communion as well.

In Acts, we see entire households being baptized, including children. In that baptism the children are welcomed into the covenant community along with the parents. Though we have no Scripture evidence in Acts for paedo-communion, I think it is safe to assume that those baptized children were not denied the Lord's Table. Maybe if I have time later I will look for extra-biblical evidence for paedo-communion in the early church.

Of course, common sense has to be applied as well. Don't go shoving bread and wine down an infants throat.(just a disclaimer to keep the lawyers off my back;) ).
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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erin74 said:
I don't have a problem with kids going to communion - it is a symbolic reminder to us of Jesus death, and I don't see any problems with kids being reminded of this also.

The Lord's Table is more than symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but is also a means of grace that is to be approached with great reverance, and not treated in a cavalier fashion. You may remember that in Corinth there were some who abused the Lord's Table and treated it with little respect, and Paul said some of them were sick and had died because of it.

Too many modern churchs do not approach the Lord's Table with the reverance due it. We have to keep fresh in our hearts and minds that table is the Altar that the Lamb of God gave Himself as a sacrifice for us on, and it is through that Sacrifice that Grace is extended to all of us who do not deserve it.

erin74 said:
I don't fully get the children are part of the covenant family bit though. I'm not trying to argue by the way - genuinely trying to understand this. I assume this comes from the concept of children being saved by their parents faith.

I understand what you are saying, but thats a misconception. In the Covenant Community, the children are not saved by their parent's faith, that would be contradictory to everything we as Calvinist believe about salvation being purely the act of God for individuals and the Church as a whole. God grants faith to whomever He so chooses in accordance with His purpose and pleasure. However, Scripture, and thereby God, does say that the Covenants are for "you and your children." We are admonished to raise our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, to teach and train our children in the ways of God. By the way, that does not apply to the parents only, but to the entire community. Shillery Klinton's book, "It takes a village to raise a child" is a perversion of God's plan for children; "It takes a Church to raise a child". As members of the covenant community children also enjoy the blessings, benefits and protection of God in the covenant. That in no way means they are saved by their parents faith.

But, speaking of the "age of accountability", there is only one way one must be saved, that is through Christ. "No one comes to the Father, but by Me", is what Jesus proclaimed.

All children are born depraved, all children are worthy of judgment and hell, just as adults are. All it takes is one sin to land someone in hell, and as Jeremiah says, we all come from the womb speaking lies, depraved, lost and blind. A child's depravity simply has not reached it's zenith for lack of time.
Therefore, there is no "age of accountability" with God.

Having said that, can an infant be saved? Can an unborn baby who is murdered through abortion be saved?

Yes.

Why?

Because God has chosen His sheep before the foundation of the world, before any of us ever had done a thing. Just as our salvation is the miraculous work of God, so is that infants, since their life is in the germ stage, but chosen regardless.

That does not mean that all are.





erin74 said:
But there seems to be a tension with individual responsiblity - cause we all know people who are not living as christians who's parents are christians - surely their parents faith does not cover them forever. Surely we are each responsible for our own faith (as given by God).
If we are resonsible for our own faith, then we are all lost with no hope. Being dead in sin and trespasses, dead to God, not seeking God whatsoever, with no goodness within us with which to want God, we can only rely solely on God and His Sovereign Grace for Redemption.


Its one thing for parents to claim to be Christian, or even being Christian and not following the mandate to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and parents who do.

However, even when parents do, that does not mean that a child may become rebellious later, as per the parable of the prodigal son.
 
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A-w-C,

Thanks for your replies. I don't consider any of it "hijacking" the thread because really, this encompasses more than one idea (paedo-communion, paedo-baptism, covenant theology, etc). While it can be cornfusing to lump them all together, I think that it essential to understand the parts as well as the whole.

CC&E
 
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Just to clear up any misconceptions, I am not talking about the "age of accountability" in the Arminian sense. I am saying that as Reformed, we deal with our children as covenant members. In practice, we treat them as outside of the covenant (in some respects) until they are of an age to be examined by the elders. Or at least it seems that way. Usually, children are examined to be communicant members around ages 10-12. I am just wondering what the Scriptural argument for this is. Also, sometimes it seems we require more from our covenant children to become communicant members than we do adults who make a profession. Just wondering and trying to think it through.

CC&E
 
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ClementofRome

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I agree with Augustine above. We need to be consistent!



I am a pro-paedocommunist! The conflict is with covenant baptism. We will baptize our infants into the covenant family, yet deny them the covenant meal. The OT children were never denied any covenant meal or celebration. Yes, it is more than a memorial service, and yes grace is involved and yes it can be abused, but to fence the table from children is an abuse...not vice versa. THe warnings in Paul's letter to Corinth have been taken out of context to fence the table and there is no need for this eisegesis. He was warning them to be reverent and not get drunk nor be gluttonous. When I hear that passage read prior to the meal as some sort of guilt extractor or to warn against the children coming....I get uneasy.

Suffer not the little children!
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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ClementofRome said:
I agree with Augustine above. We need to be consistent!



I am a pro-paedocommunist! The conflict is with covenant baptism. We will baptize our infants into the covenant family, yet deny them the covenant meal. The OT children were never denied any covenant meal or celebration. Yes, it is more than a memorial service, and yes grace is involved and yes it can be abused, but to fence the table from children is an abuse...not vice versa. THe warnings in Paul's letter to Corinth have been taken out of context to fence the table and there is no need for this eisegesis. He was warning them to be reverent and not get drunk nor be gluttonous. When I hear that passage read prior to the meal as some sort of guilt extractor or to warn against the children coming....I get uneasy.

Suffer not the little children!

Excellent point of the OT children not being denied any covenant meal.

Was not the institution of the Lord's Table on the occassion of Passover?

Is not the Lord's Table our Passover meal?
 
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erin74

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AWC,

Sorry if I have lacked a little clarity and understanding, but I am not sure that the tension is resolved for me.

I certainly do treat communion with reverence, I was just going for a brief summary rather than going in to all that communion is. Also it was quite late, and I am a touch unwell.

As to the tension. Yes of course faith comes from God, as I summerised in brackets, and we are reliant on him completely for salvation.

Where I am coming from is (and I'll try to be brief).
We are predestined from before we are conceived.
Children of believers are part of the 'covenent family' (I never put that quite as I want to).
There are (older) children of believers who are not living lives as christians.
People are not saved by their parents faith.

So, are my children saved might be a way of putting it? Can this status change (and if so are they falling away, or were they never truly saved)? If so when?

ooo - this is getting bigger than I hoped, but I am just trying to work out how this all fits together.
 
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erin74

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ClementofRome said:
I agree with Augustine above. We need to be consistent!



I am a pro-paedocommunist! The conflict is with covenant baptism. We will baptize our infants into the covenant family, yet deny them the covenant meal. The OT children were never denied any covenant meal or celebration. Yes, it is more than a memorial service, and yes grace is involved and yes it can be abused, but to fence the table from children is an abuse...not vice versa. THe warnings in Paul's letter to Corinth have been taken out of context to fence the table and there is no need for this eisegesis. He was warning them to be reverent and not get drunk nor be gluttonous. When I hear that passage read prior to the meal as some sort of guilt extractor or to warn against the children coming....I get uneasy.

Suffer not the little children!

I like this a lot. Why would we exclude children from communion.

We have a friend who is a minister who is happy to give communion to children, but only once they are on solids!!! Grapejuice btw.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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erin74 said:
AWC,

Sorry if I have lacked a little clarity and understanding, but I am not sure that the tension is resolved for me.

I understand your tension. I think it is a healthy one. Grappling with these issues I think is healthy, and is a channel the Holy Spirit uses to guide us in truth.


erin74 said:
Children of believers are part of the 'covenent family' (I never put that quite as I want to).
There are (older) children of believers who are not living lives as christians.
People are not saved by their parents faith.

Each and every one are elected solely by the Sovereign choice of God, and are not saved(justified) by a parent's or anyone's faith except Christ.

The Covenant does not mean that children are saved by their parent's faith.
Let's look at the Promise in Acts,

Acts 2:38-40

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Notice the command to "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ".
Peter was addressing the Covenant community of Jews then, who would be familiar with the promise of the Holy Spirit in OT prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah particularly, which prophecied a newness of life. They would have also understood what that meant within the covenants. Which isn't that each and every child we have is guanteed to be one of God's Elect, but is addressing children within the entire community. God ordained the family to be the first place for preaching the Gospel and teaching His Word, and gave the first command to "be fruitful and fill the earth." God works through Covenant families.

Children can and do rebel. Does that mean they are not one of God's Elect?


Not neccessarily. I think one has to keep in mind that salvation in it's totality is not a one time event. Regeneration is but salvation also includes the process of sanctification. A child can be one of God's Elect and be ignorant and rebellious, regardless of how the parents have raised the child.

A child can appear to "fall away", as did the Prodigal Son, but only be for a season. God always brings His sheep to repentance. Always.

We see things from a snapshop viewpoint, whereas God sees all, with perfect clarity. So, what may look like a "falling away" to us, can be a seasonal rebelliousness, just as we all "fall away", or as the Puritans so aptly put it, "are prone to wander".
 
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reformedfan

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ClementofRome said:
I would like to hear from some of our PCA and/or OPC folks who do fence the table prior to public profession. How do we reconcile this?

i'm not pca or opc, but i'm close; our church fences the table if there's not a public profession of faith, membership in some visible (Christian)church or willful sin or if it's a kid.

Not too thrilled about that last point, esp after reading thru this thread; we were going to leave the church over it at one point, but as RPW'ers, where would we go?
 
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reformedfan said:
i'm not pca or opc, but i'm close; our church fences the table if there's not a public profession of faith, membership in some visible (Christian)church or willful sin or if it's a kid.

Here is where I have a huge problem with fencing the table. BTW, I am PCA and have been for 20 yrs. At every PCA church I have ever been a member of (at least 6 across the US), they allow non-members to take communion if they are a member of a Bible-believing church. The elders don't take them aside before communion is served and examine them to determine if their profession is credible. Do not I, as a mother, know my child? Why must my covenant child be held to differing standards?

CC&E
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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calmcoolandelected said:
At every PCA church I have ever been a member of (at least 6 across the US), they allow non-members to take communion if they are a member of a Bible-believing church. The elders don't take them aside before communion is served and examine them to determine if their profession is credible. Do not I, as a mother, know my child? Why must my covenant child be held to differing standards?

CC&E

Your children should not be held to a differing standard, at least as far as Scripture is concerned.

I see no Biblical reasoning for refusing covenant children to share in the Lord's Table.

Let's look at the insitution of Passover, the symbol pointing to the substance of Messiah.

Exodus 12;

1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 “This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: ‘On the tenth of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household.

Here God instructed Moses that the Passover Lamb was for the entire "household", just as we see in Acts pertaining to baptism.

Exodus 12;
21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Pick out and take lambs for yourselves according to your families, and kill the Passover lamb.

Once again, the symbol pointing to the substance of Messiah is for the entire "family".

As the children of Israel looked forward to the coming of Messiah, the Lamb of God, so to do we of the covenant community look forward to the Second Coming of Messiah, and celebrate His Victory on our behalf on the Cross at the Lord's Table. I can see no change in respect to the practice of celebration concerning persons in the covenant community from Passover to the celebration of the crucified Christ from a Biblical perspective.
 
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reformedfan

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what i've heard on thast is that unlike Passover, people taking it in an unworthy manner (unable to sufficiently examine themselves, they mean, e.g. kids) eat & drink damnation onto themselves, which is how they rationalize it.

:(
 
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