Age in Relationships

ClaireZ · Dec 15, 2004

Electric Sceptic said:
I can't agree with that. I mean, whether what she's doing is right or not, the fact that she needs to hide it from her dad isn't the determining factor. What if she was dating a black man, and her dad was racist...would it be wrong for her to date him purely because she had to hide it from him?

Yes, it would still be wrong. If the relationship progresses the father is going to have to learn to deal with it anyway, and if he feels you were lying and sneaking around the problem is only going to be worse.

Also if I was the parent, I would be more likely to respect a boy (young man) who came to me and asked to date my daughter.

pro_odeh · Dec 15, 2004

But that is clearly not the issue here. And it is not the determing issue. But if you have to hide something from your dad (and he's not a rasist or anything like that) its usually because you are doing something wrong... Im not saying that it is wrong in this occasion, but if she has to hide it, there must be something not quite right.. If everything is ok, then there should be no problem telling him.
God bless!

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Electric Sceptic said:
He cheated on you, threatened to kill you more than once, and strangled you repeatedly...and you needed a book to tell you you could leave him? Are you serious?

Let me ask this...if he had done all that, but not cheated on you, would you still be with him? The bible says the only grounds for divorce is adultery...so if he hadn't committed adultery, would you still be with him?

So I am just curious...

Even though the bible says that she is to win her husband over by her love and gentileness, she is still suppossed to leave/divorce him, even though love unconditional? Is she saying that God cannot fix this problem, she will just leave/divorce?

It's gotta be a tough choice, but yeah, I still don't believe to be a reason for divoce. There are many other ways for her to seek help.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

morningstar2651 said:
Is this Love...?

I have a much better way of showing my affection to my fiance.

Wow! Good luck with that marriage, you're going to need it. Does your girlfriend agree with you on this? You don't need love to get married?

Matthew
7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

3 things...

1. Yes, my girlfriend, including my whole church, any nearly all of the christians I know agree witht his.

2. I never said you "Don't need love."

3.As far as the scripture goes, I never said that I am perfectly blameless either. I do have a good grasp on it though. If everyone looked at that verse you are using now, the issue would never get addressed.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Electric Sceptic said:
No, you haven't.

Post 79, here it is.

Quote: Originally Posted by: Electric Sceptic Of course it's conditional. You yourself say it - "without this attribute, true love is impossible" - you're imposing a condition. Imagine two christians fall in love - well and good. Then one of them becomes an atheist. By what you say, 'true love' would stop, because one no longer is in a relationship with god. That is exactly imposing a condition. The love isn't unconditional, it's conditional upon something - a relationship with god.

I find that a deplorable statement, and attitudes like that are part of the reason why christians have a higher divorce rate than non-chrisitans.

You are missing my point.

Love is honoring someones highest good. Love is an act, a verb. It has nothing to do with conditions. Now you can say, I love ones highest good conditionally or unconditionally.

"Imagine two christians fall in love - well and good. Then one of them becomes an atheist."

If you believe one can not lose salvation, like me, it does not matter. Their salvation is still there. The only rule we have when it comes to marital/courtship relationships is that we have to evenly yolked. Does this mean there is a condition? Absolutly not. You can still love that person; you can't be in a relationship with them.

There are many spiritually immature/mature christian girls I "love" to death. However, there are many spiritual differences between us causing me to not be in a relationship with them.

"I'm beginning to wonder if you read my posts completly. I do still love my ex-husband, and if he wasn't filled with hate, I would probably become his wife agian, but he doesn't want to change. I already said that I love him, not that I loved him. And as far as falling in love with another man, that in itself isn't adultry, I have fallen in love with my daughters too, but that isn't adultry either. If I had wanted the man in question for myself, I'm sure I could have had him, in a sence, but I didn't, I wanted his wife to have him period. I couldn't stop myself from loving him, and I still can't, but what I could do was remove myself from that situation, and I did. If this sort of thing was not posable, why did Paul tell his listeners to flee in that situation? It happens, it's not your love thats a sin it's your desire, and action, in reaction to that love. You may study things like this from books but as far as I can tell you still have some life to live in this respect, and a lot to learn."

Granted I see where you are coming from. You say you love this man. Fair enough, however you still had intimate feelings which you let us know when you said you guys wanted to hold hands. I am sure you are well aware that thinking and desiring such things is still sinful. Something that I think everyone is aware of.

"Quote:Originally Posted by: xtxArchxAngelxtx If a man and a woman are mature spiritual christians, compatability is not very important at all.

I find that a deplorable statement, and attitudes like that are part of the reason why christians have a higher divorce rate than non-chrisitans."

Or is it selfishness? Probably both.

Neverstop: Jesus condoned divorce if one of the partners of the marriage is "unfaithful." This is quite different from, and not exclusive to adultery.

I disagree with this ideology, but for the time being, I will just set this aside cause we are already starting to get off topic."

Electric Sceptic said:
Sorry, stating this without any basis at all doesn't get you out of your contradiction.

First off.... I have been trying to be very peaceable about this conversation and enlightening you on my points of view. I am not trying to make you beleive what I am beleiving. With your words and tone, I am getting quite frustrated, please do not be so condescending. Quotes like the one above this one can be said in much better ways considering the fact I DID have basis, and they DON'T controdict if one takes the time to see what I am trying to say. If you cannot understand it, just say so instead of making the accusation like you just did. Thanks.

Secondly, if you do see controdictions, please tell me. I noticed that you thought my idea of love was a controdiction. I really do think there is just a misunderstanding. Let me try and clear it up.

It is vain for me to love my g/f because of looks, personallity, wealth, or anything worldly. SUre, they are great attibutes and can be also be very beneficial to the relationship. However, my love to her is based around her relationship with God and how great it is. This is because her salvation is the only thing that will not pass away, and God is the only reason why we can love each other anyways; He has allowed us too. I believe it is/should be the same for all christians. This is not conditional simply because when you love someone, you love them for who they are. If they are not a christian, the main reason why I would love my girlfriend (if she was not a christian) would have to be because of something else other than salvation.

If you have more questions about my views on this, plus, just ask. Like I said earlier, I am not expecting you to believe me, I know there are many points of views and doesn't exactly mean one is right and the rest are wrong.

Eve_Sundancer · Dec 15, 2004

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
Even though the bible says that she is to win her husband over by her love and gentileness, she is still suppossed to leave/divorce him, even though love unconditional? Is she saying that God cannot fix this problem, she will just leave/divorce?

I must disagree. There comes a time when no more can be done, and the abuser must realize on his/her own the terrible things he/she has done. Jesusfreak's husband strangled her and threatened to kill her. That simply isn't right, she was right to leave him. The man could have done serious harm to her, that would have been a horrifying tragedy, would it not?

Let me share my own experience. I was engaged to a boy, and he was an abuser. He had me convinced that his hateful actions were my fault. I finally left him, and have never been happier. He still maintains that I was a bad girlfriend, I never did things for him that I should have, I was mean and "not understanding". It took a lot of courage to leave, he had me wrapped around his little finger for years. If I had married him, I would be miserable. If I had children, they would be in terrible danger by being near him. I don't think any kind of God could smile upon that kind of relationship, or be upset that it was terminated.

Jesusfreak left her husband for her sake and her children's. She did the right thing for her, maybe it would be a different story for someone else, but she was fully justified for doing so. She knew what fighting parents had done for her, she wanted to give her children a different opportunity. I am glad she was able to leave, many are never able to do so until it is too late.

Archivist · Dec 15, 2004

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
So I am just curious...

Even though the bible says that she is to win her husband over by her love and gentileness, she is still suppossed to leave/divorce him, even though love unconditional? Is she saying that God cannot fix this problem, she will just leave/divorce?

It's gotta be a tough choice, but yeah, I still don't believe to be a reason for divoce. There are many other ways for her to seek help.

I have to agree with Eve's excellent post. I once served as a domestic relations hearing officer. I saw women who had been beaten by their spouses. Some of them came into the hearing with bruises or broken bones. In some cases the woman put up with the abuse until the abuser went after her children.

No one should have to live under such conditions.

I cannot believe that a God of Love and Mercy would find fault with anyone who leaves a relationship because they are being abused.

k · Dec 15, 2004

It's gotta be a tough choice, but yeah, I still don't believe to be a reason for divoce. There are many other ways for her to seek help.

Threats to life, strangulation, adultery...those are not valid reasons for divorce?

I can appreciate the passion for the Bible, but we must not let that trump pragmatism. The husband was obviously not honoring his wife, and lacking complete respect and love for her.

Are you telling everyone if you were in a marriage and your spouse did all those things to you that you wouldn't divorce her? I sincerely don't believe you would/should stay in that situation. Our God is not an abuser approver.

k · Dec 15, 2004

There comes a time when no more can be done, and the abuser must realize on his/her own the terrible things he/she has done. Jesusfreak's husband strangled her and threatened to kill her. That simply isn't right, she was right to leave him. The man could have done serious harm to her, that would have been a horrifying tragedy, would it not?

Great outlook!! Sorry to hear you had to be in such a horrible relationship, but grateful you learned from the experience, and in the future you will recognize those types of individuals fairly quickly, thus saving a lot of time and heartache!!

I read a post where someone said the only Biblical reason for divorce is adultery. Let's see...

Mt. 5:32 "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness..."

Sure, it may be argued the "unfaithfulness" implies a type of sexual action, but I think God has wanted us to be sure that we would not be trapped in an abusive marriage either. If my wife beat me and/or verbally abused me that would be "marital unfaithfulness."

If things start to happen we have a responsibility to do what we are able, but if the abuser is unwilling to listen or change the abusive behaviours then it is time to roll on.

Our God is one of Love, and there is NO WAY anyone can justify people remaining in an abusive marriage/relationship.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Neverstop said:
Threats to life, strangulation, adultery...those are not valid reasons for divorce?

I can appreciate the passion for the Bible, but we must not let that trump pragmatism. The husband was obviously not honoring his wife, and lacking complete respect and love for her.

Are you telling everyone if you were in a marriage and your spouse did all those things to you that you wouldn't divorce her? I sincerely don't believe you would/should stay in that situation. Our God is not an abuser approver.

Death is the only way to break off a marriage. My whole church believes this, I do, and many other people I know do. It obviously conflicts with your beleifs, but thats your opinion and I have mine. I can understand why you beleive this and by no means am I going to say anything about it being wrong. But to answer your question, it is as you say. God is not an abuser approver, correct, but more so, he is not a divorce approver.
I am glad God does not "divorce" us for all of our sins against him.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Archivist said:
I have to agree with Eve's excellent post. I once served as a domestic relations hearing officer. I saw women who had been beaten by their spouses. Some of them came into the hearing with bruises or broken bones. In some cases the woman put up with the abuse until the abuser went after her children.

No one should have to live under such conditions.

I cannot believe that a God of Love and Mercy would find fault with anyone who leaves a relationship because they are being abused.

It's also hard for me to beleive that a God of love and mercy would also allow 9/11 to happen but He did allow it.

It is also hard for me to believe God would allow satan to do all he did to job, even even Jesus, His son, to be tortured like he did. God himself was abused, and still loved us, and was the most undeserving.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Eve_Sundancer said:
I must disagree. There comes a time when no more can be done, and the abuser must realize on his/her own the terrible things he/she has done. Jesusfreak's husband strangled her and threatened to kill her. That simply isn't right, she was right to leave him. The man could have done serious harm to her, that would have been a horrifying tragedy, would it not?

Let me share my own experience. I was engaged to a boy, and he was an abuser. He had me convinced that his hateful actions were my fault. I finally left him, and have never been happier. He still maintains that I was a bad girlfriend, I never did things for him that I should have, I was mean and "not understanding". It took a lot of courage to leave, he had me wrapped around his little finger for years. If I had married him, I would be miserable. If I had children, they would be in terrible danger by being near him. I don't think any kind of God could smile upon that kind of relationship, or be upset that it was terminated.

Jesusfreak left her husband for her sake and her children's. She did the right thing for her, maybe it would be a different story for someone else, but she was fully justified for doing so. She knew what fighting parents had done for her, she wanted to give her children a different opportunity. I am glad she was able to leave, many are never able to do so until it is too late.

She left her husband because of a condition. A severe condition, but still a condition. DO I blame her for leaving? Absolutly not simply because I have sisters that have been abused by husbands in the past, granted they were/still are unsaved and made very stupid decisions (not saying jesusfreak did). I would never blame a wife for leaving a husband like this, but I would encourage her to persevere.

Yes, it takes courage to leave, but it takes even more courage and faith that through her, God would work miricles in her husbands life, and lead him to salvation, which is uncomparable to anything in this world, even being abused. A thousand of tortured, and murdered christian lives is worth the salvation of one lost sinner.

morningstar2651 · Dec 15, 2004

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
A thousand of tortured, and murdered christian lives is worth the salvation of one lost sinner.

The death of one is a tragedy.
The death of millions is just a statistic.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Back to the OP.... many these issues can be avoided if a couples waits to be more mature before they decide to get married. When I say maturity, I mean spiritual and physical maturity.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

morningstar2651 said:
The death of one is a tragedy.
The death of millions is just a statistic.

This is true, but my point still stands. Death is a tragedy, but the salvation of someone found surpasses beyond any comparisson.

Eve_Sundancer · Dec 15, 2004

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
She left her husband because of a condition. A severe condition, but still a condition. DO I blame her for leaving? Absolutly not simply because I have sisters that have been abused by husbands in the past, granted they were/still are unsaved and made very stupid decisions (not saying jesusfreak did). I would never blame a wife for leaving a husband like this, but I would encourage her to persevere.

Yes, it takes courage to leave, but it takes even more courage and faith that through her, God would work miricles in her husbands life, and lead him to salvation, which is uncomparable to anything in this world, even being abused. A thousand of tortured, and murdered christian lives is worth the salvation of one lost sinner.

I'd like to believe that God could work a miracle in this abuser's life WITHOUT her needing to suffer. What better way for him to realize what he's done than to have her walk away? Seems to be a good wake-up call to me. Your last sentence, about one man's salvation being worth the suffering and death of many, saddens me. How can you believe a loving God could do all that to a person, require it of a person in order to save another?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Eve_Sundancer said:
I'd like to believe that God could work a miracle in this abuser's life WITHOUT her needing to suffer. What better way for him to realize what he's done than to have her walk away? Seems to be a good wake-up call to me. Your last sentence, about one man's salvation being worth the suffering and death of many, saddens me. How can you believe a loving God could do all that to a person, require it of a person in order to save another?

read the rest of my post.... God is loving, and love sacrifices. Without sacrifice, there is no love. Is it fair that she suffers? Not at all. Does God walk away from you when you sin? No.

Sorry... but 9/11 is far worse than this situation, and it still happened. Figure that out, and you will see why a loving God allows "bad" things to happen. Walking away will prolly make him re think a couple things, but will probably just turn Him away too. She has admited that she still loves him, which is good, but has he came back? I don't know, hopefully she can tell us.

k · Dec 15, 2004

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
read the rest of my post.... God is loving, and love sacrifices. Without sacrifice, there is no love. Is it fair that she suffers? Not at all. Does God walk away from you when you sin? No.

Sorry... but 9/11 is far worse than this situation, and it still happened. Figure that out, and you will see why a loving God allows "bad" things to happen. Walking away will prolly make him re think a couple things, but will probably just turn Him away too. She has admited that she still loves him, which is good, but has he came back? I don't know, hopefully she can tell us.

It is conceptually absurd to try and compare 9/11 to an abusive marriage.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

I think I have said all I want to say... at least in this forum. If anyone wishes to speak more or discuss this with me, I will be more than happy to listen.

peace

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Dec 15, 2004

Neverstop said:
It is conceptually absurd to try and compare 9/11 to an abusive marriage.

how so? Both are bad, but have a great ammount of suffering, one person suffers while another exploits power negativly and violently, both are allowed by God. It is absurd? I do not see how, please tell me.

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