FreeGrace2
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Actually, it did.
Actually, none of TULIP is found in the Scriptures.
I said this:
"Interesting that nearly every Calvinist defaults to the idea that if Christ died for all, then all are saved. The Bible does teach that Christ died for everyone, but that only those who believe will be saved. I wonder why Calvinists seem unable to understand that view."
What Scripture says that we are saved by His death? I can show you many verses that say we are saved by faith in Him.So, Christ's death did not save all it was meant to save?
His death makes it possible for the justice of God to save by grace those who believe.
Please quote any verse that says that Christ died only for the elect?Yes, and this refers to Gentiles, not the non-elect.
Please understand that I'm no Arminian either.Correct. And the elect are the sheep. If Jesus is talking about the Arminian view, then how can they be His sheep before they believe?
And to answer your question, let's consider exactly what Jesus said in John 10.
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
OK, analysis of each verse.
In v.7 Jesus makes the claim that He is the "door of the sheep".
v.8 speaks of false prophets.
v.9 clarifies who becomes "My sheep". Those who enter through Him. Note He changes from "sheep" to "anyone", so He obviously uses the metaphor of sheep to refer to humans. And it's anyone, not the so-called "elect" who will be saved by entering through Him. The phrase "enters through Me" is another metaphor for saving faith in Christ. Those who express saving faith will be saved.
v.10 contrasts false teachers/prophets with the Messiah. And the phrase "and have it abundantly" is a reference to not just getting into heaven, but having abundance there. iow, "having life" is a reference to receiving eternal life, and entering heaven. But "having it abundantly" refers to reward in heaven.
I said this:
"Being preserved (eternal security) and perseverance are 2 separate and different concepts. Glad to see that it seems that is understood."
First, my comments were not condescension, but acknowledging that it seems to me that you really did understand the difference between the 2. And, yes, many DO think they are the same thing.You can drop the condescension, princess. Nobody said they're the same thing.
Second, I'm no princess, so you can stop the snarkiness. Thanks.
Please don't put the yoke of Calvinism on Paul. It didn't come from him, but from a guy named Calvin. Paul taught that Christ died for ALL. And that perseverance is a command, not an automatic response of some, called the frozen chosen.
However, your way over-generalized views of Jesus' words is noteworthy. From such a broad view, one can nearly come up with any kind of theology they want to create. Slick.
I'll spell it out for you. If people follow the teaching of Jesus on what it means to be His disciple, they will be sorely disappointed at the judgment. Because no one is saved by being His disciple. They are saved by placing their trust in Him alone for salvation.
Jesus taught a lot of things. Some were in reference to salvation (saving faith), some in reference to how one is to live their life (lifestyle faith). Mixing them up will result in people not getting saved.
This completely misses what I've said. It is true that one's lifestyle doesn't matter regarding one's salvation. What matters is whether one has placed their trust in Jesus Christ to save them. But lifestyle absolutely DOES MATTER if one is concerned or interested in being blessed by God and rewarded for faithful service.Hey, since you say I'm once saved, always saved, I can put the yoke wherever I want. It doesn't matter what I say or do. I am free to do whatever I want, even if Jesus said otherwise. Please don't try to persuade me otherwise. I don't have to even give your words the slightest thought. This isn't about you, but me.
This is totally inaccurate conclusion that isn't supported by anything I've posted.With your view of OSAS, it doesn't matter what Jesus said.
Wrong. No one is free to undo what God has done.Remember, it's about you. You are free to do whatever you want.
Why doesn't context have any importance? If context was paid any attention, it would show how inaccurate your comment is.Of course you will spell it out for me; it's all about you. You have gotten to the point of telling us that those who follow Jesus' teachings will be sorely disappointed at the judgment.
I've said this. So why apply it to what I believe?I wonder why Jesus gave us things to do and how to live, when it's all about the person himself. Just believe and the world is yours.
Again, Rev 22:12 is important. As is all of what Jesus taught.Why worry about what Jesus taught? Do it your way. Have it just the way you want it...just believe!
This is totally inaccurate conclusion that isn't supported by anything I've posted.
But the notion that one is saved based on lifestyle is a false doctrine
It is true that one's lifestyle doesn't matter regarding one's salvation.
Jesus taught that those who believe HAVE eternal life and will NOT come into judgment/condemnation.
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Jesus also taught that those He gives eternal life will NEVER perish.
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
One might notice that in these promises, Jesus never gave any exceptions to His promises. They are based on faith in Him, apart from any lifestyle.
Jesus Himself taught that some will "believe for a while, and in time of testing/temptation, will fall away". Was He being inconsistent too?I don't believe you're being consistent. If one is saved, according to you, by "accepting Jesus", then don't they have to remain in a perpetual state of "acceptance"?
That's what Jesus taught.If one can choose to accept Christ, according to you, then can he just as easily choose to walk away from Christ?
No, he wants believers to doubt their salvation and be in constant fear of losing it. Because those who believe that their salvation isn't secure are expressing LACK OF FAITH in the promises of God. That's what he wants us to believe.That's exactly what Satan wants you to believe!
No need to resist temptation or avoid sin because your salvation is guaranteed. You just miss out on a reward so no big deal.
Actually, the Bible teaches that rewards ARE a big deal, so your opinion of the matter is immaterial.
What does the Bible say about condemnation?Wouldn't that also mean those who DON'T believe DON'T HAVE eternal life and WILL come into judgment/condemnation? So much for OSAS.
John 3:18 - “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
"Could be"?? Not so sure, huh.That conclusion does not follow because Jesus could be referring to the elect.
I haven't. Why have you dismissed the loss of reward as "no big deal"? That's the rest of Scripture.Every agrees faith is necessary but you can't ignore the rest of scripture.
I said this:
"It is true that one's lifestyle doesn't matter regarding one's salvation."
No, he wants believers to doubt their salvation and be in constant fear of losing it. Because those who believe that their salvation isn't secure are expressing LACK OF FAITH in the promises of God. That's what he wants us to believe.
I said this:
"It is true that one's lifestyle doesn't matter regarding one's salvation."
No, he wants believers to doubt their salvation and be in constant fear of losing it. Because those who believe that their salvation isn't secure are expressing LACK OF FAITH in the promises of God. That's what he wants us to believe.
That conclusion does not follow because Jesus could be referring to the elect.
"Could be"?? Not so sure, huh.
I haven't. Why have you dismissed the loss of reward as "no big deal"?
Jesus Himself taught that some will "believe for a while, and in time of testing/temptation, will fall away". Was He being inconsistent too?
That's what Jesus taught.
But the issue is whether salvation can be lost. There is no teaching in Scripture that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. As a Calvinist, you should know that.
Actually, it makes perfect sense.That doesn't make any sense.
Because God is pleased with faith, per Heb 11:6. Those believers who have no eternal security and think that God may remove their salvation if they "screw up" are NOT pleasing God. In fact, they don't believe His promises. That makes satan very happy.Why would Satan care if believers lacked faith if their salvation was guaranteed anyway?
My comments were in reference to the parable of the soils, particularly the 2nd soil. There was no mention of tares or false converts. The 2nd soil believed for a while and then fell away. They were saved because they believed.No, because He was talking about tares and false converts, not born again believers who have the power to undo the work of the Holy Spirit.
Uh, that's eternal security, which is my position.No, that's what you claim Jesus taught. The Bible shows that Jesus taught just the opposite: that Jesus will lose no one the Father gave Him.
Or maybe your communication needs some work.Your lack of reading comprehension is showing.
Well then, we're on the same page.I never said that one who ceases to believe ceases to be saved. I said that one cannot be saved in the first place without belief, and that when one is saved, they are regenerated by the Holy Sprit, quickened, and given a new nature.
Obviously the OP has his mind set and no amount of reasoning can sway them.
However, I offer this:
"11...A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." -Lk. 15:11-32 (KJV)
When we accept Christ, when we believe, we become sons. (cf. Jn. 1:12)
As in the scriptures above, a man had two sons, one stayed home, one went out and had a "riotous living".
He came to his senses, and returned.
At what point did the son cease to be his fathers son?
As far as the father knew, the son was dead, but was found alive.
As far as the father knew, the son was lost, but is now found.
So here again, at what point did the son cease to be his fathers son?
Sure, we all sin, even after salvation we will sin sooner or later.
There is also:
"4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost." -Lk. 15:4-6 (KJV)
It is certainly possible for a Christian to "backslide".
But if we do, will Christ not come looking for us? If not, then the scriptures lie.
How many times in the OT did Israel "backslide"? It was so bad at one time God told them He divorced them.
"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;" -Jer. 3:8 (KJV)
So at what point did Israel cease to be God's people?
If you come to church, make a confession, get baptized, and leave the church and head right back out to the bar thinking you can live as you once did, and never live the lifestyle expected of Christians, then yes, OSAS is not true. It don't even apply to you, because you were never saved to begin with. (Cf. Mt. 13 and the parable of the sower)
However, if you are saved and just so happen to "backslide" we have the promise of Hebrews 12.
"5 My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." -Heb. 12:5-10 (KJV)
So at what time did the mans son cease to be his fathers son?
At what time does Christ cease to search out His own sheep?
At what time did Israel cease to be God's chosen people?
God Bless
Till all are one.
Rabbit trail.What if the prodigal son didn't return to his Father?
Rabbit trail.
What if Adam didn't follow the woman and take a bite?
Another rabbit trail.
I always prefer the "what is" rather than the "what if".
Please note: this does not include Jesus’ warnings to everyone in the 4 Gospels!
No OSAS for Christians who are slaves of sin (who habitually practice sin)
Romans 6:16-23 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves)
of sin leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …" --- 3 dire warnings in 8 verses!
Romans 8:13-14 • "For if you live according to the flesh you will die (eternal death);
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (eternal life).
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
Through the help of the Holy Spirit, we must put to death the sinful nature.
This, of course, is all part of walking on Jesus’ narrow path (Matthew 7:13-14).
IMO, you will make it to heaven, IF you sincerely repent of (forsake) your sins!
No OSAS for Christians who do not overcome all sins of every type
Revelation 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he will be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Jesus is talking about anyone who is a habitual (unrepentant) sinner!
Revelation 3:5 • “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,
and I will not blot out his name from the Book of (Eternal) Life …”
Revelation 3:21 • “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”
Jesus did not overcome by believing He was/is the Son of God (re: 1 John 5:5).
No OSAS for Christians who do not sow and live according to the Spirit
Galatians 6:7-8 • “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows,
that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
Romans 8:5-6 • "For those who LIVE according to the flesh set their minds on the
things of the flesh, but those who LIVE according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally-minded is death, but to be spiritually-minded is life and peace.”
Decide for yourself: Are these passages contrasting eternal death with eternal life?
No OSAS for Christians who do not practice righteousness
1 John 3:7 • “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous”
The Christian who does not practice righteousness is not righteous in God’s eyes!
No OSAS for Christians who do not love and obey Jesus
John 14:15-23 • “If you love Me, keep (obey) My commandments …
He who has My commandments and keeps (obeys) them, it is he who loves Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will keep (obey) My word …”
Good question: Does anyone get to heaven who does not love Jesus?
Hebrews 5:9 • “He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Romans 6:16 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin
leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …”
James 1:12-15 • Those who endure the temptations to sin “will receive the
crown of (eternal) life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”
No OSAS for Christians who draw back, fall away, do not endure in the faith, etc.
Here are just a few of those famous “conditional passages” …
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 • “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel … by which you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you – unless you believed in vain.”
2 Corinthians 13:5 • “Examine yourself to see IF you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.”
Hebrews 3:14 • “For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning
of our confidence steadfast to the end.”
1 Timothy 5:16 • “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Does this remind you of “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)?
Or Paul’s concern that after preaching to others he might be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)?
Hebrews 10:36-39 • “ ‘Now the just shall live by faith; but IF anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
In this last part, Paul displays his usual tactful method of softening his dire warnings
with encouragement and exhortation, and he is hopeful that none of them fall away!
Revelation 2:10 • “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.”
The fun part about this is: “the crown of life” is eternal life! … Research it for yourself,
and note James 1:12-15 … he warns to not be deceived: sin brings forth eternal death.
No OSAS for Christians who don’t do what is required of them
1 Timothy 6:9-19 • “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into may foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil … Let them (rich Christians) do good, that they may be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”
If you are a Christian who desires to be rich, beware of the possible consequences!
IMO, the “good foundation for the time to come” refers to when Christians are judged.
Jude 20-21 • “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
Our eternal life depends on Jesus’ mercy, which depends on us!
So, let us all agree: “Faith without works is dead (useless)” (James 2:20)
No OSAS for Christians who do not inherit (enter) the kingdom of God
First, these 2 passages prove that “the kingdom of God” is analogous to heaven …
Mark 9:47 • “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire”
Matthew 25:34-46 • “Come, you (the righteous) blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The unrighteous (e.g. habitual sinners) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God …
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 • “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
There are several “sin lists” which keep Christians out of the kingdom and heaven.
Note: I have not included in the above Jesus’ many warnings in the 4 Gospels.
June 18 editing for formatting clarity only.
I've never used the prodigal parable for OSAS. I use verses and passages that actually and clearly teach OSAS.Wrong, it is a perfect illustration. You can't use the prodigal son for OSAS apologetics because the conclusion was determined in part by the actions and decisions of the son in returning to his Father.
21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(James 1:21-22)....
I wonder how many actually catch the theme here.
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
Ephesians 4
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
James 1:21
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Notice the very first thing mentioned in all these passages - cast away all your transgressions, put off the old man, and lay aside all filthiness and wickedness. All three passages give us the order of salvation.
1. cast away all your transgressions 2. to get yourselves a new heart and new spirit.
1. put off the old man, that is, your former way of life 2. then put on the new man.
1. lay aside all filthiness and wickedness 2. then receive the implanted word 3. and finally, save your soul.
We see from these passages that regeneration is not first in the order of salvation. These passages also teach against 'just believe', that is, faith alone, for salvation.
I am sure we will now see those come forward to tell us don't believe this. I wonder who will be first.
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