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No, actually I got that.You missed the part that says, in the eyes of the Lord in that verse.
Do you seriously believe that God needs to see one's works in order to know that they have faith?Your point before was all about being justified in the eyes of men and not God.
...
Let's listen to what the Bible says:These verses alone disprove OSAS and faith alone.
The proof that all the verses quoted over and over by the loss of salvation crowd is the verses that teach eternal security.However, those who hold to these beliefs will fall all over themselves to prove these verses do not disprove OSAS and faith alone.
More holes in your example than can be found in swiss cheese.Peace be with you.
A story of God's Free Gift and FR.
God put an ad to find someone to receive His free gift of a car. FR answered the ad.
God says to FR, "By accepting this car as a free gift which is irrevocable, you believe me." FR replies, "I get it." God then goes on to say, "I will maintain the car at my expense in regards to all cost. I'll provide a new car for you when this one gets too old." FR replies, "Ok."
Two further details God adds, "If you believe me, you will be saved. If you do not believe me, you will be damned." FR replies, "Ok."
God then gives the keys to FR. One day, God gives FR a call. God says, "FR, when you have some free time, I need a lift." FR replies, "Ok." But FR never comes to give God a lift.
FR brings the car to God for a service. God takes care of it. When FR comes to collect the car, God reminds FR, "Don't forget when you have some free time to give me a lift. FR replied, "Ok."
This carried on until FR passed away.
At FR's Judgment, God says to FR, "You never had any free time?" FR replies, "Yes, I did." God then asks FR, "How come you didn't come and give me a lift?" FR replies, "Why did I have to do that for you? I believed you when I accepted the car as a free gift."
God replies, "Is that so? Do you think I am so stupid to give a car as a free gift to you for no reason? I wanted to ride with you in the car so I can spend some time with you and talk to you. But you must have thought I was going to take advantage of you, didn't you?" FR replies, "No."
God then says to FR, "Did you take me on a free ride?" "No" was the reply by FR. God then says to FR, "You are a cheat and liar. You have no honour. You believe me, FR?" FR replies, "No, I'm not, no." God says to FR, "Goodbye."
God bless you.
Obviously the OP has his mind set and no amount of reasoning can sway them.
However, I offer this:
"11...A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." -Lk. 15:11-32 (KJV)
When we accept Christ, when we believe, we become sons. (cf. Jn. 1:12)
As in the scriptures above, a man had two sons, one stayed home, one went out and had a "riotous living".
He came to his senses, and returned.
At what point did the son cease to be his fathers son?
As far as the father knew, the son was dead, but was found alive.
As far as the father knew, the son was lost, but is now found.
So here again, at what point did the son cease to be his fathers son?
Sure, we all sin, even after salvation we will sin sooner or later.
There is also:
"4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost." -Lk. 15:4-6 (KJV)
It is certainly possible for a Christian to "backslide".
But if we do, will Christ not come looking for us? If not, then the scriptures lie.
How many times in the OT did Israel "backslide"? It was so bad at one time God told them He divorced them.
"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;" -Jer. 3:8 (KJV)
So at what point did Israel cease to be God's people?
If you come to church, make a confession, get baptized, and leave the church and head right back out to the bar thinking you can live as you once did, and never live the lifestyle expected of Christians, then yes, OSAS is not true. It don't even apply to you, because you were never saved to begin with. (Cf. Mt. 13 and the parable of the sower)
However, if you are saved and just so happen to "backslide" we have the promise of Hebrews 12.
"5 My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." -Heb. 12:5-10 (KJV)
So at what time did the mans son cease to be his fathers son?
At what time does Christ cease to search out His own sheep?
At what time did Israel cease to be God's chosen people?
God Bless
Till all are one.
Please consider what this means then.
If departing from evil saves one's own soul, then the person who departs from evil is their own savior. How preposterous.
That would mean that Jesus Christ died for NOTHING. Again, just preposterous.
Have you really considered all the ramifications of your views?
What is the context for v.21? v.13-16, which is about temptations leading to sin.
v.21 teaches that by avoiding (laying apart) all filthiness and naughtiness, AND receiving the Word (God's instructions for living in righteousness) one is delivered, rescued, saved from such temptations.
So how does this verse fit into your theology?
The question that one needs to ask is: "to save from what?"
Did YOU catch that?
It is clear from all your posts that you do not believe that one is saved by faith. I get that. Even though Eph 2:8,9 totally refutes your misunderstanding of Scripture.
We are saved by grace (which you seem to have no understanding of) through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS. These 2 verses totally refutes your views.
Your opinion does not change the facts.
Do you really think that most people think it's no big deal if others think of them as hypocrites? Even the Pharisees didn't want that. Which is why Jesus called them that so frequently, and why they hated Him so much.
The ONLY WAY a Christian can avoid (save himself) from the charge of being a hypocrite is to demonstrate their faith (live it out) in front of others.
Please consider what this means then.
If departing from evil saves one's own soul, then the person who departs from evil is their own savior. How preposterous.
That would mean that Jesus Christ died for NOTHING. Again, just preposterous.
Have you really considered all the ramifications of your views?
What is the context for v.21? v.13-16, which is about temptations leading to sin.
v.21 teaches that by avoiding (laying apart) all filthiness and naughtiness, AND receiving the Word (God's instructions for living in righteousness) one is delivered, rescued, saved from such temptations.
So how does this verse fit into your theology?
The question that one needs to ask is: "to save from what?"
Did YOU catch that?
It is clear from all your posts that you do not believe that one is saved by faith. I get that. Even though Eph 2:8,9 totally refutes your misunderstanding of Scripture.
We are saved by grace (which you seem to have no understanding of) through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS. These 2 verses totally refutes your views.
Your opinion does not change the facts.
Do you really think that most people think it's no big deal if others think of them as hypocrites? Even the Pharisees didn't want that. Which is why Jesus called them that so frequently, and why they hated Him so much.
The ONLY WAY a Christian can avoid (save himself) from the charge of being a hypocrite is to demonstrate their faith (live it out) in front of others.
I said this:
"Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. But your theology doesn't accept that promise. Why?"
This is an odd response to my comment. Again, my question was ignored. And the Pharisees thought they had eternal life in the SAME WAY your side thinks you have it; by being good. They did have the Law, but they rejected the ONLY WORK that leads to eternal life: the work of Christ on the cross paying the penalty for our sins.
Where does the Bible say their eternal life was revoked? It doesn't. They NEVER had it. That was Jesus' point. They were counting on their moral life to save them.
And I am quite amazed at your question since the Bible very clearly states that the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE, and your view is that the Pharisees had eternal life but it was revoked, even though eternal life is a gift of God.
If anyone doesn't understand what I post, just ask. I'd be more than happy to clarify.
I don't like your sasrcasm one bit. For salvation, the Bible teaches faith alone. Why don't you accept Eph 2:9? "not by works, so that no one can boast."
You just keep missing the point. Human beings CANNOT see one's faith apart from what they do. God doesn't need to see deeds in order to see one's faith. He sees the heart.
I said this:
"Why should anyone think Matt 23 has any direct relation to James? It doesn't. Jesus was pointing to the gross hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who did things for their OWN GLORY.
James' point was that Christians need to demonstrate their faith to others so that it can be seen by them. And to NOT be hypocrites.
So, James and Jesus were on the exact same page. But you missed it."
Just keep on missing the point. Jesus was speaking to UNSAVED Pharisees, who thought they had eternal life by their lifestyle. James was speaking to SAVED believers who needed to be encouraged to live out their faith before others.
Which has nothing to do with loss of eternal life, as much as you'd like it to be that.
While he didn't use the word, his message clearly was about it.
It's sad that the clear subject of hypocrisy is not being discerned.
James' point is that it should. There is no guarantee in Scripture that it does.Doesn't faith produce works?
If eternal salvation is obtained by departing from evil, then you are your own savior, and salvation is by works, essentially. Again, you have not done your homework as to the obvious conclusions of your theology, which is not biblical.Just because temptation leads to sin does not undo the fact that our souls are being saved in the manner that James suggests. James doesn't say you are saved from temptations. James essentially says that departing from evil saves your SOUL.
No, it's the only requirement for salvation.Also, I believe having a belief in Jesus is the foundation of our faith.
James was NOT saying that God justifies on the basis of works.For without it, we would not be saved to begin with or cleansed again if we faulter on the road of Sanctification. James says we are justified by works and not faith alone. So both are equally important....
No, actually I got that.
Do you seriously believe that God needs to see one's works in order to know that they have faith?
Please show where the Bible teaches that Jesus "does the good work" that leads to salvation.Also, as for believing that works also saves in addition to faith and your false claim against me in thinking that I believe a saint is one's own savior:
Well, I believe Jesus saves both in Justification (Believing in Jesus as one's savior and believing in his sacrificial death, burial, resurrection, and ascension) and in Sanctification (Whereby Jesus does the good work in one's heart and life).
I don't think you have understood this at all. It means He PAID IN FULL the debt of sin.For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. sin) (1 John 3:8).
And that is not talking about how to get saved. It was written to the already saved. The subject in these 2 verses is about fruit production, not salvation production.For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is the Lord that works within us (Philippians 2:13).
That is NOT possible for anyone who thinks that they can lose salvation and perish.Let me say, I believe and accept that promise more than you do.
Then this indicates that God and His Son Jesus are contradictory to each other.But Paul says God gives eternal life to those who patiently continue in doing good.
Then obviously you have no concept of how one receives eternal life.If you think one can live in sin and not obey His commands, I can positively say, he has not been given eternal life.
I'm not having any problem with understanding how the word "dead" is used.His belief is just a vapor blowing in the wind. His belief is dead without good works. Just as the body is dead without the spirit, so is faith without works. What part of dead do you not understand?
Why would anything think that morality saves anyone? The Bibles differently.So, a person who believes and desires to obey and do good works is not saved?
ANY kind of works are excluded in the issue of getting saved. The Bible says so here:Do you think he doesn't have eternal life? So much for your OSAS. Several on here do not think those who believe, obey, and do good works are saved. They think doing good is a ticket to hell. So, what are the conditions for OSAS? Are good works excluded?
There you go. It's "not by works". It's by grace through faith. Period.So, a person who just believes has eternal life, while those who live a moral life do not.
No, he disagrees with how some have twisted his words.Again, Paul disagrees with you in Romans 2.
For those who have continued to read what ELSE he wrote know that NO ONE can "continue in doing good".It is those who continue in doing good who are given eternal life.
lol Maybe you should read all of ch 3 before making the ridiculous argument about 2:6-8.Maybe you should read all of Romans 11 before assuming you know what verse 29 says.
There is NOTHING in either ch 11 or in the ENTIRE book of Romans or ANYWHERE else in the Bible that shoots down eternal security.Do you even know what Paul was talking about in Romans 11? I do not hear you speaking of verses 21 and 22. Why is that? Because it shoots down your OSAS belief.
Prove your theory that to be "cut off" means loss of salvation.If one continues in evil, HE WILL BE CUT OFF, just like the natural branches. Now let's see you refute this Biblical teaching.
Why would it be OK to believe false doctrine? But I understand that everyone is free to believe whatever they want to believe.What you believe is from your heart. I will believe what the Bible says about being cut off and eternal life given to those who continue in doing good. Is that okay with you?
Please either cite a post # where I've "boasted" or issue an apology.However, you boast to this forum you have understanding and others don't.
Why do you ask me? I didn't write the Bible. But I understand the Bible.Why do human beings need to see your faith? Are you trying to impress them?
They didn't HAVE any faith, but apparently you must have missed all that discussion in the gospels. Jesus repeatedly pointed out to the Pharisees that they were rejecting Him as Messiah. Why didn't you know that?The Pharisees wanted people to see their faith; they wanted to be justified in the eyes of men.
This demonstrates a failure to understand my posts as much as a failure to understand Scripture.This is exactly your belief.
It has NEVER been about "wanting others to see how good you are". It's how others will see Christ-likeness in us. It's about being a living testimony for Christ.Aren't you seeking your own glory by wanting others to see how good you are?
This just demonstrates how badly you've twisted Scripture."Look here people, I have faith; just look at the good I am doing."
Apparently you're totally unfamiliar with James 2:18 -James said nothing about demonstrating faith. You keep adding what isn't there.
So, you've completely misunderstood (or intentionally twist) my posts.So, boasting is a part of your faith.
Your posts prove that you don't.Of course you get it, you understand, and I don't.
Nope.Who needs works to boast? Even those with 'faith alone' can boast.
More evidence of biblical ignorance. It wasn't the Pharisees who are God's chosen people. Why would anyone even think that? But it does demonstrate your unfamiliarity with Scripture.When did God's chosen people, the Pharisees, lose their eternal life?
They were NEVER saved. They were religious. They thought they could earn entrance into heaven. They were sadly mistaken.When did they become unsaved?
The Bible tells us clearly:Why were the natural branches cut off from the root?
Which is what those who think some can lose eternal life. They've added (or maybe subtracted is the better word) to Scripture.It's sad people have to add to the Bible to justify their beliefs.
What kind of confusion is this??James 2:18 says,
"Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Let me give you an example.
If God said for you to believe that your antique show chair that was old and weak and could fall apart at the slightest touch was now strong enough for you to sit in it and you said "I believe you Lord" and yet you were still in doubt enough to actually sit in the chair and take a chance on hurting yourself, are you trusting God? In other words, your lack of action would show you really did not believe God....
Dear 57:
First, in my profile display in each of my posts, I list myself as "non-denominational"; And on my profile info page, I provided a link here at CF to a detailed lengthy "statement of faith."
Second, I believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God and that the Bible alone is our sole authority (and no other writings, or book, or oral tradition is acceptable). So this rules out the fact that I am a part of the two religions you are referring to (or any other religions that have a church name for that matter). I believe in house fellowship with other like minded Christians.
Three, proper Soteriology is neither Antinomianism nor Works Alone Salvationism. Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is Jesus Christ and my hope is in Him. For it was my coming to Jesus (and being sorrowful in a Godly way) that cancels out my past sin debt (making my sins that were once scarlet washed clean as white as snow). Jesus saves me both in Justification (faith in Him and what He has done for me with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension) and Jesus saves me in Sanctification (In His working thru my life to walk as He walked). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. sin) (1 John 3:8).
Four, please address the verses I brought forth if you believe you are correct instead of attacking me.
Thank you and may God's love shine upon you.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,
Sincerely,
Jason.
...
I don't think you have understood this at all. It means He PAID IN FULL the debt of sin.
James' point is that it should. There is no guarantee in Scripture that it does.
Which is why we are commanded to produce works. It doesn't come naturally.
btw, there is a difference between works of the flesh and works of the Spirit. It may be the VERY SAME works, but the difference is whether the believer does the works from the filling of the Holy Spirit or whether they came from the "energy of the flesh".
Please show where the Bible teaches that Jesus "does the good work" that leads to salvation.
Did you know the bible says.....There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1.
One verse I do know that you know is that...no one can snatch you from Jesus hand.
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