After Death??

[CGL1023]

I feel sad that non-Christians will have to go through all the judgements, what did they do to deserve this?

That point of view would put you out of step with your Creator -- how can you benefit from that?

 

[hhodgson]

Andrewofthetribe said: ↑

I feel sad that non-Christians will have to go through all the judgments, what did they do to deserve this?

It's not what they did but rather what they didn't do! They may be loving the creation while not loving the Creator. You can help change that in your area. (Salt and Light)

Andrewofthetribe said: ↑

I'm sorry my friend there are so many messages of hate where I live, I'm maybe too quick to see hatred when I should be looking for hope. There are glimmers of hope here in England, let's hope it reaches across the world to all our Christian brothers and sisters.

Guess what Andrew! With "Christ in you" YOU are one of those glimmers of hope that God has predestined there in England. YOU are the salt of the earth... AND the light of the world in your area, or... wherever God sends you.

Matthew 5:13-16 (Salt and Light)

13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14 You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.…
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.​

If you and I are true followers of Christ, we are to be like savory salt, and remain seasoned, steadfast and true in our witness for Christ... and, by letting our light shine wherever we go. We all need to be reminded to take our personal witness of Christ seriously.

That is what Jesus was trying to tell us here. What good is salt if you can not taste it? What good is a light if you can not see it? We can't win the world by ourselves... but together we ALL can start (in our area) with our neighbors, friends, and loved ones by showing purity of heart as (seasoned salt) being steadfast and true... and by letting the light of Christ shine through us wherever we go. Pass out the salt and shine your the light before men.

How do we let our lights shine before men? Let it shine from our face and be a witness of the love of Christ from our heart. As I write this response... an old favorite church song is flowing through my mind. Enjoy Andrew...

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

It's not what they did but rather what they didn't do! They may be loving the creation while not loving the Creator. You can help change that in your area. (Salt and Light)



Guess what Andrew! With "Christ in you" YOU are one of those glimmers of hope that God has predestined there in England. YOU are the salt of the earth... AND the light of the world in your area, or... wherever God sends you.

Matthew 5:13-16 (Salt and Light)

13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14 You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.…
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.​

If you and I are true followers of Christ, we are to be like savory salt, and remain seasoned, steadfast and true in our witness for Christ... and, by letting our light shine wherever we go. We all need to be reminded to take our personal witness of Christ seriously.

That is what Jesus was trying to tell us here. What good is salt if you can not taste it? What good is a light if you can not see it? We can't win the world by ourselves... but together we ALL can start (in our area) with our neighbors, friends, and loved ones by showing purity of heart as (seasoned salt) being steadfast and true... and by letting the light of Christ shine through us wherever we go. Pass out the salt and shine your the light before men.

How do we let our lights shine before men? Let it shine from our face and be a witness of the love of Christ from our heart. As I write this response... an old favorite church song is flowing through my mind. Enjoy Andrew...

Thank you. That was lovely to read. "They may be loving the creation while not loving the Creator" is God not creation himself ?

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

That point of view would put you out of step with your Creator -- how can you benefit from that?

It doesn't put me out of step with my creator.
It puts me in step with the 10 Commandments.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Thank you. That was lovely to read. "They may be loving the creation while not loving the Creator" is God not creation himself ?

No! God is not creation. There are some related beliefs that are cultic to Christianity:

• Pandeism - teaches that God became the creation and ceased to exist as a separate, conscious being. This is an offshoot of Deism (that God is disjoint from our universe and does not interact with it). I'm sure you don't mean this.
• Panentheism - teaches that God "penetrates" every piece of matter in the universe. Another way to say this is that God is the soul of the universe. This view holds a distinction that God is divine and the universe is not.
• Pantheism - the above two are a modification of this, which teaches that God and the universe are one and that the universe is just as Divine as God is.

God created the creation -- from nothing. He did not create it from Himself, thus He is not a part of the creation. It is separate from Himself. It is also fallen, which is an attribute that God cannot hold.

Another way to say this is that God is transcendent. He is above creation. He is apart from the universe and is not limited in any manner such as the universe.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I feel sad that non-Christians will have to go through all the judgements, what did they do to deserve this?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.
Romans 1:18-20​

God told us that the unrighteous are "without excuse." No, Andrew, they deserve this if they do not repent.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

It doesn't put me out of step with my creator.
It puts me in step with the 10 Commandments.

It absolutely puts you out of step with the Creator.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.
Romans 1:18-20​

In step with the 10 Commandments? Are you still under Law? If you are saved, you should not be.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!
Romans 6:15

For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.
Galatians 3:10-14​

Are you attempting to keep the 10 Commandments? How have you succeeded? The Bible says that no one can live righteously, not one. So if you are attempting to keep the 10 Commandments, you are also failing now and again. This means that you are cursed.

But Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. We are no longer under the law, but rather we are under Grace.

But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Galatians 3:23-25​

The law (like the 10 Commandments) were our tutor to bring us to Christ. Now, we are no longer under a tutor.

Please note that the commandments -- the laws -- are all based on the eternal laws of God. These don't change and we are still called, through sanctification, to be made more perfect in our walk in these eternal laws. But through Christ, whose blood cleanses us white as snow, we are no longer seen as sinners. We have been justified.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

What about our sense of personal freedom that is surely lost?

Why would your personal freedom be lost? God is not forcing you to act or be a certain way.

God offered salvation to you. You must accept or reject.
Once accepted, sanctification takes place. Sanctification is a mutual process between you and the Holy Spirit (God). You have perfect free will to accept the steps of sanctification, or to reject them (or delay them). Your freedom is perfectly intact.

 

[now faith]

This was a long time back and I do not follow Mr Hovine,but nevertheless it was a good exegesis

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

Can anyone hear please prove to me that they know Jesus. Just to be clear, quoting things from books is not proving Jesus exsists.

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

It absolutely puts you out of step with the Creator.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.
Romans 1:18-20​

In step with the 10 Commandments? Are you still under Law? If you are saved, you should not be.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!
Romans 6:15

For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.
Galatians 3:10-14​

Are you attempting to keep the 10 Commandments? How have you succeeded? The Bible says that no one can live righteously, not one. So if you are attempting to keep the 10 Commandments, you are also failing now and again. This means that you are cursed.

But Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. We are no longer under the law, but rather we are under Grace.

But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Galatians 3:23-25​

The law (like the 10 Commandments) were our tutor to bring us to Christ. Now, we are no longer under a tutor.

Please note that the commandments -- the laws -- are all based on the eternal laws of God. These don't change and we are still called, through sanctification, to be made more perfect in our walk in these eternal laws. But through Christ, whose blood cleanses us white as snow, we are no longer seen as sinners. We have been justified.

Dont we love our neighbors? Or do we secretly gloat because they will be judged and not us ?

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Dont we love our neighbors? Or do we secretly gloat because they will be judged and not us ?

Both believer and unbeliever will be judged with equal measure.

Andrew, of what belief system are you? What denomination are you "closest" to, realizing that you have "non-denominational" in your status. What church do you attend?

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

Both believer and unbeliever will be judged with equal measure.

Andrew, of what belief system are you? What denomination are you "closest" to, realizing that you have "non-denominational" in your status. What church do you attend?

I'm a Christian. I follow Jesus Christ and the lord God of Abraham.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I'm a Christian. I follow Jesus Christ and the lord God of Abraham.

I find that answer in people who are hiding something they think others won't appreciate. Although I find your last sentence intriguing.

You know what I'm asking. In fact, you didn't answer the whole question. I'll try again...

1. what denomination would you say you are "closest" to?
2. what church do you attend? Any?

Simple questions, really.

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

I find that answer in people who are hiding something they think others won't appreciate. Although I find your last sentence intriguing.

You know what I'm asking. In fact, you didn't answer the whole question. I'll try again...

1. what denomination would you say you are "closest" to?
2. what church do you attend? Any?

Simple questions, really.

Sorry I just don't think of myself as any denomination, if you like to tick boxes then it would be CofE. I
Don't attention their church due to the nature of their church and the evil vicious campaign they delivered to Catholics for hundreds of centuries.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Sorry I just don't think of myself as any denomination, if you like to tick boxes then it would be CofE. I
Don't attention their church due to the nature of their church and the evil vicious campaign they delivered to Catholics for hundreds of centuries.

I gathered that you were non-denom. But thanks for "ticking the box" nearest your belief.

Do you attend church at all? It is a commandment of God.

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Hebrews 10:24-25​

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I decided to do a study on where we go when we die. It has been a very interesting study but I have not come to any conclusions as of yet. I thought I would share my research and see if anyone could add to it. I would prefer scripture backup and not just opinions if possible. And don’t go beating me up, I am a student of the bible and hope to stay that way until I die. And please understand I could not give a hoot what actually happens since no matter what, my assurance is in Christ on where I finally end up. So, here is what I have gathered so far.

We are made up of 3 parts, spirit, soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23) so I have broken this into 3 parts as well

The Spirit

From an article I found online:

At death the spirit (not the soul) returns to God. (Eccl. 12:7; Luke 23:46 , Acts 7:55-60). However the spirit is not the consciousness, the ego. The spirit is associated with the breath, and is that force from God which produces life (Gen. 7:22 R.V. Gen. 2:7; Job 27:3; John 6:63). The union of the breath of the spirit of life with the body produces the consciousness. When this union is dissolved by death the consciousness ceases to exist until resurrection (Psa. 146:1-4; Eccl.9:5; Rev.20:5). The further fact that the dead are said to be asleep proves that consciousness is gone. Conversely resurrection is referred to as an awakening of the dead.

My comments to that

Yet Luke 16:22-24 would indicate that the dead are conscious. But Gen 2:7 says when the Spirit of God comes into a body we becoming a living soul, so if the Spirit leaves the soul I would think we are a dead soul then. Which would bring me to the conclusion that a dead soul is conscious but considered dead without the Spirit.

Your Body

This one is pretty obvious and requires no scriptural backup. When you die (physical death) your body ceases to function. The physical body remains in the grave and returns to dust (Genesis 3:19).

Your Soul

Now this one is the challenging one.

Andrew Wommack Commentary note on John 5:28 states

No one is actually in the grave. The Bible does not teach a “soul sleep,” as some people try to make it say. At physical death, the soul and the spirit separate from the body (James 2:26 with Revelation 6:9) and either go immediately to be with the Lord (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, 5:1-10; and Philippians 1:23) or to Hades (also called Gehenna; Luke 16:22-23).

My comment to that

Now I like Wommack but do not see how he can say the Bible does not teach soul sleep. The Bible mentions we are asleep over 50 times. Why would it say asleep and not dead? Could “asleep” mean the state we are in when the soul is not joined with the Spirit? Luke 16:23 points out that Lazarus was able to see so there seems to be some consciousness while we are in this state.

Now whether the soul stays with the body or goes to a holding place (Paradise) that I am not clear on. Seems unlikely that our soul would stay with the body. Example, cremation. Notice in John 14:3 that Jesus said he would come for the apostles, yet he didn't, they all died. So, could they be waiting for Him in the tombs or the area in Hades called Paradise? Before Jesus's resurrection it seems clear that Paradise was that holding place per Luke 23:43, 16:22-23 , Acts 2:29,34. So the confusing part is, if Jesus cleared out Paradise (John 5:28) where do New Testament folks go when they die? If heaven then why did Jesus tell the apostles He would come and get them (John 14:3)?

Also, when he was resurrected, did everyone in Paradise at that time get released? Also notice 2 Cor 12:4 says Paul went to Paradise yet this was after the resurrection. Which would seem to indicate this area of Hade existed after the resurrection.

And then there is 2 Cor 5:8 about being absent from the body. This was something interesting I found online Absent from the body and to be present with the Lord 2Cor.5:8 Here is an excerpt

1 Thes 4:17 would indicate we are in a holding area since this was written AFTER Jesus went to Paradise and on to heaven. It also mentions it is at this point we will be with the Lord forever.

And Phil. 1:21-23 , 2 Cor. 5:6-8 which talks about being present with the Lord at death. Could this be talking about our spirit which returns to God when we die (Eccl. 12:7) and not our soul? Another thought , God does not live in time/space and we do, so our thinking is linear.

Some say that the soul ceases to exist at death because they say the spirit and body make up the soul. I could not find any scriptures to support this.

From another article online

The Scriptures most definitely teach that at death the soul dies. For example, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezk. 18:4, 20); "He spared not their soul from death" (Psa. 78:50); "He hath poured out His soul unto death" (Isa. 53:12). Strange as it may seem the Scriptures never speak of the "immortality of the soul." The Greek word athanasia, which means immortality occurs only three times in the word of God: twice in 1 Cor. 15:53, 54; and once in 1 Tim. 6:16.

My comments to that

Not sure I agree. This could be talking about spiritual death not physical death. Separation from God, not actually the final separation of the soul and God’s Spirit.

Something else interesting

Jesus preaches in Paradise Luke 23:43 , 1 Peter 4:6 and 1 Pet 3:19. Luke points out He went to Paradise but the 1 Peter verse points out he preached to spirits in PRISON and 4:6 seems to indicate humans. First if our spirits return to God when we die (Ecc 12:7) then I would think these are NOT human spirits. Not to mention these spirits were in prison. What is that all about?

And notice in John 11:4 Jesus said Lazarus was not dead. Yet the verse above 1 Peter 4:6 says Jesus preached to the dead. Unless he actually spoke to the Hade side of Paradise and gave those folks a change for salvation. So, could it be that God sees death completely different than us. Dah, obviously He does. We see it as when life leaves the body. Yet God maybe sees it as when you are actually in Hade and you are completely separated from Him. When Jesus said this about Lazarus it was pre-cross/resurrection so maybe he was waiting in Paradise until Jesus called him back.

So is John 5:28 speaking of when Jesus went to Paradise/Hades or the 2nd coming. If it is talking about when Jesus went to Paradise/hell then He emptied those places. Take those in Paradise to heaven and If it is the 2nd coming then when we die and end up in Paradise/Hades with everyone including the OT saints.

That is just the old soul sleep error from the 1800's.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ron Rhodes has a good book on the afterlife.

 

[now faith]

Can anyone hear please prove to me that they know Jesus. Just to be clear, quoting things from books is not proving Jesus exsists.

I'm sorry to say but your question and premises speaks volumes.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I think therefore I exist. I spoke with God this day and he thinks.