Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
MaryS said:Some states have made progress to eliminate affirmative action programs.
In 1996, California voters passed Proposition 209, legislation that eliminated affirmative action in education, employment, and contracting throughout the state.
Washington voters passed Initiative 200 in November 1998, which restricts the use of race/ethnicity in employment, education, and contracting decisions.
The only exception that I know of in California is contractors who get money from the federal government. Lockheed and many others continued their racial and gender preference programs in hiring and promotions.
Employers And Other Entities Covered By EEO Laws
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) cover all private employers, state and local governments, and education institutions that employ 15 or more individuals. These laws also cover private and public employment agencies, labor organizations, and joint labor management committees controlling apprenticeship and training.
http://www.eeoc.gov/
Lifesaver said:Even laws that aim to prohibit companies from hiring in a "discriminating fashion" are harmful to society, and should not exist either.
If a company will let their racism come before their profits, they will have disadvantages in the market.
By not allowing firms to hire whom they think is best more suited and to the job, but giving that role to the government (even if only in suing firms who hire "discriminatorily", something inherently unprovable), we'll have inneficient, unfair, bad, political choices, since it lacks both the information and the incentive to make the best choice, and has an incentive to do what will look good to voters.
It would have faired better if people weren't racist when hiring.mhatten said:Then how did the US economy survive for all the years we lived in a apartheid society, history tells a different story.
There are many factors which come into play when hiring someone. The government tries to make it seem something simple, and usually states that the only things that matter are the experience and education. Reality is far more complex. Those who are hiring take all kinds of information into consideration, even information which they can't yet communicate.Why is proving discrimination unprovable?
mhatten said:So you think market forces will stop people from making racist decisions?
Lifesaver said:It would have faired better if people weren't racist when hiring.
In this case, by prohibiting firms to hire whoever they think is best, .
There are many factors which come into play when hiring someone. The government tries to make it seem something simple, and usually states that the only things that matter are the experience and education. Reality is far more complex. Those who are hiring take all kinds of information into consideration, even information which they can't yet communicate.
The way the person behaves, how they look on their photograph, etc. If they make the right choice, the company will have a slight advantage over its competitors; if they make a bad choice, the situation of the firm will be a little worse off.
It is impossible to tell if the decision to hire one person and not the other one was racism or not.
But I re-state, even if it were possible, the firm is not harming anyone when they do not hire them for whatever reason. Even if the reason is racism, sexism, heightism, etc.
"Pretty well" is completely subjective...mhatten said:It did pretty well, how much better it would have done is completely subjective. We can only go by the evidence, it is possible to operate an aprtheid state and do well economically. Of course the majority are doing well at the expense of the minority but what is a small thing regading morality got to do with economics.
By interfering in any way with someone's rights to hire whomever they want for a job the EEOC/AA is doing something wrong.That is not what AA does. If that was the case, and firms always acted in their best interest and hired, promoted and fired based on what is "best" the need for EEOC/AA would be non-existant.
When someone offers a job it is within their rights to give it to whomever candidate they choose for whatever characteristic they choose.I suggest you Google do Black names matter, however that is why most cases of discrimiantion are based on historical data and not on individual claims.
The offering of an extra possibility can never be harmful. Let's say I have 0 job possibilities. Then a job possibility is offered to me. Sadly, another candidate is chosen over me. I am back to my original state, and the man who got hired is better than he was before (or else he wouldn't have accepted the deal).The firm is not harming anyone, and how do you come to that conclusion?
Lifesaver said:"Pretty well" is completely subjective...
Plus, you put your own case in danger by making this claim.
According to you, firms are not being harmed for acting discriminatorily. So, according to you, their discrimination is based on real relevant differences, because if it weren't the firms would suffer for it (they would not be as profitable as they could be).
Is it immoral for firms to hire who is best for the job?mhatten said:No, it just means what it means, you can operate albeit in a morally bankrupt state and do well, look at drug dealers.
I have no idea of what you mean by "economic harm".The question isn't whether the firms are being harmed the question is are the individuals and depending on the extent of the discrimination, society as a whole. Obvioulsy the harm is more than just economic.
mhatten said:The question isn't whether the firms are being harmed the question is are the individuals and depending on the extent of the discrimination, society as a whole. Obvioulsy the harm is more than just economic.
Jetgirl said:It could be proposed that society and various individuals are harmed every time a business owner makes ANY bad decision.
The questions is, how far do we want to go in preventing people from having the capablity to make decisions that are considered "bad".
I've also noticed that businesses who choose to hire only minorities at the exclusion of white people somehow get a free pass from this discussion.
How do you feel about exclusionary policies on the other side? Are they as bad a businesses that will only hire whites?
mhatten said:
mhatten said:Good question, but like I stated I think we can give up AA in hiring except perhpas in construction. I don't think the AA programs in terms of promotion and pay should be eliminated .
Jetgirl said:I just don't see how using race as a factor at all in a promotion or pay situation is any better than discrimination as it was before.
Trogdor the Burninator said:
IF they truly were qualified individuals, then AA would be redundant.
Fact remains that almost inevitably, businesses and colleges end up choosing less qualified applicants because they are scared into making up quotas.
The hypothetical situation of two absolutely identically qualified candidates rarely if ever arises.
In other words, violating people's rights to hire whom they choose, making it so that the preferred candidates don't get the job they would have voluntarily accepted and harming the rest of society as a result.mhatten said:Race is not a factor in promotions and pay. AA programs at that level are to ensure that minorites, women, and the disabled are not passed by when they shouldn't be and are receiving equal pay for equal work.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?