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Affirmative Action...

  • should be implemented in employment and college acceptance

  • should be implemented in employment but not college acceptance

  • should be implemented in college acceptance but not employment

  • should be used for neither employment nor college acceptence


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Trogdor the Burninator

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mhatten said:
The EEOC has observed an increasing number of color discrimination charges. Color bias filings have increased by 125% since the mid-1990s, from 413 in FY 1994 to 932 in FY 2004.
mhatten said:
That is a lot of imaginary discrimination.

I don’t think that anyone here is contending that there is no discrimination, only that AA is the wrong solution to solve it.

Given that AA has been around for quite some time now, the figures quoted above would appear to show that it has been an abject failure in changing behaviour, and that a new approach is needed.
 
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praying

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suggestions?
 
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Instead of doing a copy and paste job, I will just post a link.

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm
 
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Confession: I USED to be anti-AA...until I actually got off my self-righteous pedestal and started doing some actual WORK by reading, researching, and talking w/ people. I had to let the facts create my position, not the converse. It was a hard process for me, but it was well worth it.
 
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12volt_man

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Neverstop said:
Prove it with concrete examples.

Why is it that you love to demand that others prove things to you, but when you're asked to provide evidence to back up your claims, you refuse?

Isn't that just one more example of hypocrisy on your part?


So, what "facts" led you to support reverse racism?

If the former is true the latter is irrelevant.


It's not irrelevant at all.

Rather than allowing the business owner to put the prospective minority appplicant on equal footing with other candidates, he must now give preference to somebody who may not have been the better choice, even though that person wouldn't have faced discrimination in the first place.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Well plenty of us from the Anti-AA position base our stand on facts too. And the fact remains that a government cannot on the one hand mandate race in ANY FORM in hiring policy while at the same time expecting the public not to do likewise.

And as for talking to people, almost no-one that I've talked to supports the policy for that exact reason.

The figures cited earlier in mhatten's post show that racist incidents have been INCREASING since the early 90s. So it seems that AA is failing in the real world too.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Going back to a simple, transparent anti-discrimination policy, backed up by laws to prosecute companies guilty of discriminatory hiring practises would be a start. Putting more money into education, especially into underfunded schools in poor areas would go a long way too.
 
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praying

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Going back to a simple, transparent anti-discrimination policy, backed up by laws to prosecute companies guilty of discriminatory hiring practises would be a start

Going back to??? These have always existed side by side with AA.
 
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BrownCoat

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Meh. Hypothetically, if I was a business owner, I wouldn't be able to stand the government telling me how to make my money.

Here's how I think about it:

My first premise if I'm hiring a person for a job in my company, that person does not have a right to expect to be hired for that job, because a job represents an investment that I am making with my money. Since it is my money, I am entitled to spend it however I choose.

Which leads to:

Since a job is spending my money, I am entitled to choose any criteria that I want to, to spend my money. The government has no right to dictate to me how I spend my money, as long as I am not using it to infringe on the rights of anyone else. Since a job is not a right, the government has no right to tell me who I can or cannot hire for a job.

Thus:

If I am entitled to use any criteria I choose for hiring a person for a job, and the government cannot interfere, I have a right to use racist qualifications to hire people to work for my company, because a job is not a right, and the government has no right to tell me how I can or cannot spend my money.

Is using racist decisions a bad criteria for hiring someone? Certainly. Does it make it a bad business decision? Yes. Am I entitled to make bad business decisions? Absolutely.
 
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MaryS

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What's interesting about this poll is that nearly 75% are opposed to affirmative action. Considering how most polls here are way skewed to the left, that's quite amazing.

Based on the rulings made by the Supreme Court in the Michigan University case, the best opponents of affirmative action programs are Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy. Rehnquist was also, but he's gone.

The judges who seem to favor affirmative action are Stevens, Souter, and Ginsburg. Stevens used to rule against it but he has steadily moved toward the left of the court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger (upholding Michigan University's right to use race as a criteria for admissions)
Rehnquist, Scalia, Kennedy, and Thomas dissented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger (striking down Michigan University's point-based system of affirmative action)
Stevens, Souter, and Ginsburg dissented



Looks like there might be a chance of using the Supreme Court to strike down some university programs if both of the newest judges on the court are conservative on that issue.


 
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praying

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BrownCoat said:
Is using racist decisions a bad criteria for hiring someone? Certainly. Does it make it a bad business decision? Yes. Am I entitled to make bad business decisions? Absolutely.


So you think market forces will stop people from making racist decisions?
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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BrownCoat said:
Is using racist decisions a bad criteria for hiring someone? Certainly. Does it make it a bad business decision? Yes. Am I entitled to make bad business decisions? Absolutely.

I agree with you up to a point.

However, your business decisions affect society as a whole, and your business derives benefit from a stable, harmonious commercial climate. Both these things would be adversly affected if businesses chose to discriminate based on race.
 
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MaryS

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Some states have made progress to eliminate affirmative action programs.


In 1996, California voters passed Proposition 209, legislation that eliminated affirmative action in education, employment, and contracting throughout the state.

Washington voters passed Initiative 200 in November 1998, which restricts the use of race/ethnicity in employment, education, and contracting decisions.

The only exception that I know of in California is contractors who get money from the federal government. Lockheed and many others continued their racial and gender preference programs in hiring and promotions.
 
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