Affirmative Action/Reverse Racism

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by Outspoken

Very easy, its called the library. When talking about HS equvillancy (sp) the library is the source that you need. I'm sorry, your stance is just not a valid stance when you think about it.

I assumed when you were talking about a HS equivalency, library-earned education you meant a GED. I apologize.

A 4.0 is a 4.0, yes. But you don't take into account that all classes are not equal. Several students in my high school had very high grades--but they weren't taking Honors AP classes. When colleges look at your educational history, they look at the grades and the classes you took.

But take this for instance. My school was a rural public high school--it offered 3 AP classes total. My husband's private school offered more AP classes than I can count off the top of my head--so many that he entered the university with junior standing his first year. I wasn't necessarily disadvantaged, but I did not have the same opportunity to acheive as he did. It's the same for poorer public schools in relation to my public school.

Even with the same class--say, AP Calculus, things are not equal between the schools. It is quite common for people to make 5's (the top grade) in AP with a good teacher--very few people in our school made over a 3 (passing). Not because we are dumber than other student populations, but because we have a difficult time attracting quality teachers in our rural and less prosperous area. Students who have poor teachers or even average teachers are at a disadvantage in the grand scheme of things--and you are more likely to find poor teachers in poor school regions and in rural and inner city areas.

Richer people don't have their education handed to them, but they do not face the disadvantages that many poor public school children face. They often live in areas that can afford to pay for quality instructors and have excellent facilities (like new computer labs and science equipment).

--tibac

 

[IslandBreeze]

Funny, when I was in my freshman year of college, I had to work, and still had time for the library...

 

[Warrior4Jah]

I got a BIG problem with affirmative action. The whole thing is absurd. Affirmative action keeps some of the best out of a job they deserve. If im perfectly qualified for a job, I know what im doing and Im an honest worker its likely i can get a that job. This is how it used to be, if you were good at a job and qualified to do it you could get that job. If you worked hard, youd get ahead in life. But oh no, not anymore, responsibilty is out the window these days and affirmative action says so. Ive got a prime example here. One of my very good freind's dad has been working for his company for along time, I know him, hes a good guy and ehs been fighting for a promotion for a very long time. Due to affirmative action, hes been barred from getting the promotion he deserves everytime a blackman or a woman or a hispanic is up for the job as well, even if its perfectly clear that he is more qualified for the job and has been working harder to get it. This a classic story thats being told all over America, and is the reason why affirmative action needs to be done away with.

 

[Outspoken]

"In Missouri, the lowest-performing students have teachers with the lowest scores on the ACT college-admissions test. "

Good job, this proves NOTHING about race at all.

"Low- income, low-achieving, and nonwhite students also were more likely to have teachers who lacked prior teaching experience, had failed a teacher- licensing exam on the first try, or had attended less selective colleges as undergraduates."

So what? Like I said, there is a library you can go to. Honors students will be honors students regardless when it comes to this subject. Its unfair to limit someone who is clearly a better all around student to getting grant money to go to college just because he is of a different race or theorectical income level.

"In schools where a majority of students are members of minority groups, nearly 17 percent of novice teachers never student-taught, compared with fewer than 6 percent in low-minority schools. In high- vs. low-poverty schools, those figures are 15 percent and 7 percent, respectively"

This shows me they have lack of motitvation, and thus shouldn't be enpowered by a "equality" hand out.





"You claim, that the basic education is the same everywhere? "

No you misunderstand, I said the oppertunities are the same everywhere in terms of learning. That's what a public library is all about. There is NO excuse for a student not to learn and to get into college other then themselves. AA just screws up the system even further.

"It has nothing to do with being lazy, perhaps those poorer people don´t have the time to spend in teh library and wade through the literature, because they have to work."

so what? I did too. I worked in HS during my senior year and I seemed to get along just fine. The point is AA rewards low achievers, and that's wrong. The playing field is quite level.

 

[Outspoken]

"I assumed when you were talking about a HS equivalency, library-earned education you meant a GED. I apologize."

Not a problem, miscommunications happen.

"When colleges look at your educational history, they look at the grades and the classes you took."

Yeah, and if you see a student taking an advanced class with a A and a honors with a B they are about the same. Are you saying HS don't offer enough classes? I know someone that did some classes through another school in the district PLUS there is always an interview you can do and scholarships you can apply for. I still don't see this as an excuse to reward lower achieving students.


"because we have a difficult time attracting quality teachers in our rural and less prosperous area. "

Not to sound mean, but I will be blunt, it was because you didn't study enough. Don't "pass the buck".


"Students who have poor teachers or even average teachers are at a disadvantage in the grand scheme of things"

I disagree, if you're smart you'll learn regardless of who teaches you. I had a terrible teacher in a college class I had, but I went and learned it on my own. Again, don't pass the buck, no one's fault but the person not studying.

 

[Lacmeh]

Outspoken, you claimed you worked during HS. So tell me, did you have time for work, time to do your homework for school AND time for going to a public library for further education?
If the HS has courses for about 15 hours a week, homework takes 10 hours a week, you work for 10 hours a week, making 35 hours. Then adding the way to school/from school, work etc. another 5 hours at least. That´s at lerast 40 hours a week. If you want to educate yourself on a sublject, you need at least 2 hours a week on school. Since you get all the materials in school, get it taught by a person you can ask anytime, it is much easier. Add for self education another 8 hours a week. Not counting, that you don´t know which books to look up, the library might not have the books available etc.
You have very strange conception of equal chances. For you equality means to work extra, because the school you attend to doesn´t have qualified teachers...

 

[Outspoken]

"So tell me, did you have time for work, time to do your homework for school AND time for going to a public library for further education?"

Sometimes I had to make time and cut out videogame playing.

"For you equality means to work extra, because the school you attend to doesn´t have qualified teachers..."

Maybe so, but I don't think just because we have to work harder we should give handouts to underacheivers. Do they have to be motivated? Yes, but all students do, or they will not get far at all. So again, you're saying they are lazy, ie they don't want to do extra work it takes to succeed.

 

[Brimshack]

If you honestly believe that hiring & promotion ever used to be based on pure merit Warrior, then you are daydreaming.

 

[Outspoken]

"If you honestly believe that hiring & promotion ever used to be based on pure merit Warrior, then you are daydreaming.
"

Brim, does that mean you give out bonuses to try to get two wrongs to make a right? I would say no...

 

[Lacmeh]

Outspoken, you have to acknowledge, that working harder for the same goal, only because of school location and lack of teachers ability and lack of proper funds for teh school to get decent material can´t be equal chances.

You think, that AA is wrong and two wrongs don´t make right. I am interested in your proposal for levelling the field without doing a wrong.

 

[juiblex]

Good job, this proves NOTHING about race at all.

i think you will find it does, if you match up the statistics. low performing students have low performing teachers. low performing teachers are the ones teaching in high-poverty high-minority schools if yoiu cared to read the article.

hence, high poverty & minority schools are less likely to succeed because they have poor teachers. this is evidence against your argument previously: "It still doesn't prove less money means you aren't as smart (due to "worst" teaching ...which is not proven either).". because schools are funded by property taxes in the areas, hence high-poverty schools will have less money, and less more qualified teachers will work in it for various reasons. therefore, the students in high-pov high-minority schools are disadvantaged because they are poorly resourced and have sub-standard teachers. as opposed to a lack of motivation and less capability.

So what? Like I said, there is a library you can go to. Honors students will be honors students regardless when it comes to this subject. Its unfair to limit someone who is clearly a better all around student to getting grant money to go to college just because he is of a different race or theorectical income level.

libraries after school <generally also being forced to work around a job as well> will not make up for insufficient teaching during school ours. i would like to see some evidence that it is of equal value, at the very least, to those going to better funded schools with better experienced teachers.

This shows me they have lack of motitvation, and thus shouldn't be enpowered by a "equality" hand out.

you cannot derive information about the motivation of students from a statistic on inexperienced teachers! thats an atrocious non-sequitur!

and dont think i dont notice you havent addressed the bulk majority of those statistics either. you are in danger of looking as though you lack intellectual integrity.

 

[IslandBreeze]

I don't understand the continuing arguments about poor, inexperienced teachers. Do you know how much education it takes to BE a teacher? MINIMUM four year degree, and THEN teachers have to continue their education. Stop blaming the teachers. Let's start blaming the people with the lack of motivation to get off their BUM and do something for themselves--without handouts or special treatment.

 

[juiblex]

I don't understand the continuing arguments about poor, inexperienced teachers. Do you know how much education it takes to BE a teacher? MINIMUM four year degree, and THEN teachers have to continue their education. Stop blaming the teachers. Let's start blaming the people with the lack of motivation to get off their BUM and do something for themselves--without handouts or special treatment.

ok, its getting pretty apparent to me my point isnt coming across clearly.

novice teachers are a part of the problem, and part of the reason people in high-pov&minority schools are disadvantaged.

this is not to say they are completely to blame, a fair amount of that should be directed towards the system itself.

It doesnt matter Cammie how much education you need to be a teacher, if youre going to be a teacher then you should get the education for it. a teacher is supposed to be giving others an education, and if they dont have one themselves how can we expect them to teach children properly. Its a loop.

B) Its not about motivation and it has never been. The problem is the education system is supposed to be fair and equal and in order to achieve a basic education the same amount of effort should be required rather than some student learning all they need to in the 6 hours and doing extra at home, and other students who do not learn anything due to poor teaching at school and then have to learn the basics when they get home. There is a vast difference.`

So in order to correct the imbalance found in K-12, AA was introduced. does this make it right or fair? maybe not, but still its trying to give the children who had to work 10 times as hard in order to get the equivalent scores the chance to be able to get on equal footing with everyone else. And until the problem at the bottom rungs of the ladder have been sorted out, AA is the only way to correct the problem as yet.

So if you dont like AA, perhaps you should be helping trying to get the poorer high-minority schools up to the standard <they have no funding after all, and the teaching levels are substandard> rather than letting the inequality continue and abolishing any chance for those capable but poorly-educated student the opportunity they need in order to succeed.

 

[two feathers]

outspoken, where did you gain so much knowledge about minority schools in low income areas? do you draw your conclusions from quality time that you have spent with students whether as a volunteer or as an employee? or did you grow up in a low income neighborhood thereby allowing yourself the perfect platform in which to argue your points about "under achievement" and "lack of motivation"; about resources available to students in non priviledged societies; etc, etc, etc?

 

[Outspoken]

"I am interested in your proposal for levelling the field without doing a wrong."

I would say better teachers in the inner city if you think that's the problem.

 

[Outspoken]

"low performing teachers are the ones teaching in high-poverty high-minority schools if yoiu cared to read the article."

So you think teachers are the problem, then lets focus on that instead of giving out handouts to underacheivers.

"in high-pov high-minority schools are disadvantaged because they are poorly resourced and have sub-standard teachers. as opposed to a lack of motivation and less capability."

So you're for giving an student that didn't do well a chance to go to college and fail out because they were ill prepared? Not a great strategy if you ask me.

"will not make up for insufficient teaching during school ours"

I disagree. If you've read text books they clearly outline what you should do to learn the material, provide many examples and walk you through the learning process.

"you cannot derive information about the motivation of students from a statistic on inexperienced teachers! "

Yes you can. Your side is saying it takes extra work for them to learn. They don't want to do that, so they don't learn, thus that's just plain lazy. Your sides arguement, not mine. Read the posts.

"outspoken, where did you gain so much knowledge about minority schools in low income areas? "

Try living in Houston all your life, you get pretty intimate with "minority schools in low income areas."

 

[juiblex]

So you think teachers are the problem, then lets focus on that instead of giving out handouts to underacheivers.

no, read my post again. i said the system is the problem. the appalling teaching is symptomatic of a bad system.

and they arent underachievers, they are those who did their best despite adverse circumstances. and they deserve that recognition.

So you're for giving an student that didn't do well a chance to go to college and fail out because they were ill prepared? Not a great strategy if you ask me.

it wasnt their fault they were ill-prepared firstly, and secondly they did do well relative to the resources they were provided. And you cannot draw the conclusion that they would 'fail out'. Especially as you have not provided one iota of data to support this argument, let alone the rest of your rhetoric.

I disagree. If you've read text books they clearly outline what you should do to learn the material, provide many examples and walk you through the learning process.

so, youre telling me that we dont need teachers at all? because what you have effectively said is:

student + textbook will be as effective as student + textbook + teacher + any other tuition.

anyone who has done basic mathematics can tell you

Where a & b > 0

a + b cannot equal a + b + c + d unless c + d = 0 or c = -d

Yes you can. Your side is saying it takes extra work for them to learn. They don't want to do that, so they don't learn, thus that's just plain lazy. Your sides arguement, not mine. Read the posts.

ok, youve made another logical error, you cannot derive wants/motivation/laziness from a statistic unless the statistic is based on that. <even then, i would still question how you can measure such a thing.>. and then to derive such information about A when the statistic is on B is not acceptable.

perhaps it is you who should be reading posts.

 

[Outspoken]

"the appalling teaching is symptomatic of a bad system."

NO, that's the actual problem.
Your stats prove that quite nicely.


"and they arent underachievers, they are those who did their best despite adverse circumstances. and they deserve that recognition."

NO, if they wanted an education they would use the library as a source and actually learn. You would have me believe that they didn't, thus they don't deserve anything special.


"it wasnt their fault they were ill-prepared firstly"

Yes, it was. It is their job to train themselves, their job to learn. They are responsible for their learning, their teachers are a resource to that end. If that resource isn't working, it should be replaced (ie library and other sources) or revamped.

"so, youre telling me that we dont need teachers at all? because what you have effectively said is:"

Not quite. I have said if one source is failing the other can help. I in no way negated the other source, but it can be compensated for if you really want to learn.

"you cannot derive wants/motivation/laziness from a statistic unless the statistic is based on that. "

Its not an error at all. Your side said that going to the library and learning is too much work. Thus thats just being lazy.

"perhaps it is you who should be reading posts."

I have been thanks, that's why I'm on target in my statements

The problem is you want to pass the buck. I'm not willing to let the student shift their responsiblities away. It is THEIR job to learn. Don't reward underachievers, it just drives them to do less.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Originally posted by juiblex
ok, its getting pretty apparent to me my point isnt coming across clearly.

novice teachers are a part of the problem, and part of the reason people in high-pov&amp;minority schools are disadvantaged.

this is not to say they are completely to blame, a fair amount of that should be directed towards the system itself.

It doesnt matter Cammie how much education you need to be a teacher, if youre going to be a teacher then you should get the education for it. a teacher is supposed to be giving others an education, and if they dont have one themselves how can we expect them to teach children properly. Its a loop.&nbsp;

Novice teachers, huh? So a four-year degree WITH STUDENT TEACHING EXPERIENCE means nothing to you? What should we do, pull established teachers out of their districts and make them teach in the inner-city schools?

And your whole lines about education and teachers makes NO SENSE. None. Whatsoever. Any teacher that goes through college and gets a degree is capable of being a great teacher--even with your claim of limited resources.

The problem is NOT teachers! It's not funding either, because ALL public schools in states get equal funding, depending on the number of students in the school system. WHY can't we blame the students for lack of motivation and drive, and blame their parents for not caring? What is so wrong with putting responsibility where it belongs? We have "minority" parents who WERE discriminated against, teaching their children--who have had equal rights their whole lives--&nbsp;that they're OWED handouts. THAT is where the problem is.

 

[juiblex]

NO, that's the actual problem.
Your stats prove that quite nicely.

so you are saying the teachers are the problem? hypocrisy aside, my statistic went towards proving that teachers are a part of the problem. they were used to directly address your point that bad teaching had not been proven. i provided no statistics on the system itself, and you cannot place all the blame on one party without weighing up all the evidence.

NO, if they wanted an education they would use the library as a source and actually learn. You would have me believe that they didn't, thus they don't deserve anything special.

please state where i say they do not use the library.

It is their job to train themselves, their job to learn. They are responsible for their learning, their teachers are a resource to that end. If that resource isn't working, it should be replaced (ie library and other sources) or revamped.

and it is the teachers job to teach, and its the systems job to make sure students across the board are learning. they are responsible for their learning, yes, but they should not be punished when the system is substandard and they are not given equal opportunities in order to be able to complete theur education and learn as much as those who were adequately provided with.

and 'replacing' is not possible. its illegal not to attend school. replacing would only be an option if you were able to get rid of one of the resources and take up another.

Not quite. I have said if one source is failing the other can help. I in no way negated the other source, but it can be compensated for if you really want to learn.

emphasis mine. teachers cannot be replaced and we cannot expect children without teachers to learn as much and as well as ones with teachers. Societies learnt that thousands of years ago, its a basic concept. Teachers are a fundemental resource to learning, and you cannot replace them simply with a textbook. Drinking water wont stop starvation, although it will prolong it.

Its not an error at all. Your side said that going to the library and learning is too much work. Thus thats just being lazy.

please dont twist words. we said that work in a library will not make up for a lack of appropriate standardised resources and a student with resources cannot be judged against those without.

I have been thanks, that's why I'm on target in my statements

*cough*