Affirmative Action/Reverse Racism

[Outspoken]

"And AA DOES allow less qualified students/potential employees to be put above more qualified people simply because they are a "minority.""

No joke!! People that had lower scores and a lower GPA got more grant money then me just because of a physical characteristic. I wasn' t happy when I found it out either.

"considering all the above, why should we listen to you, instead of Colin Powell? "

Because she is right

 

[Clay]

if these people are infact smarter than whites (not that race has anything to do with intelligence), then why on earth would they need something like AA to feel bad for them and let them in? if you're smart, youll find a way. just look at all the inventors in the past. smart people who found ways. im certainly not going to get anything handed to me on a silver platter. ive gotta work my butt off to get anywhere in this country. i attend college in the south and you wanna know how many spoiled black, hispanic kids i know? a lot. infact ill give you the names right now. adrian, jim, amber, juan, maggie, ed, yovahn, dan, scott, tae, kim just to name a few. why do these minority kids come from VERY wealthy families? because their parents worked hard, just like i will if i want to get where they are. the thing that strikes me the most is that these very people HATE afirmative action with a passion.

 

[juiblex]

Originally posted by Cammie
Excuse me, I didn't have tutors upon tutors, nor did I attend a private school. And AA DOES allow less qualified students/potential employees to be put above more qualified people simply because they are a "minority." U of MI has shown this to be true, since "minorities" have a MUCH higher dropout/ failure rate in the program.

i think it goes without saying that not all whites go to public schools and have multiple tutors, i didnt expect you to, however, you still had the opportunity to have them, and many middle-class families seize this opportunity and gain the advantage.

the AA was designed for people who are intelligent and capable but were not so lucky to get the same opportunities.

if these people are infact smarter than whites (not that race has anything to do with intelligence), then why on earth would they need something like AA to feel bad for them and let them in?

<edited because you dont have that smily on these boards>

 

[TheBear]

Making decisions in the marketplace based on a person's ethnicity is flat-out racism and un-American. Just because your ancestors suffered under slavery doesn't mean that I or my business owes you anything. Every ethnic group in the world has suffered tyranny.

Jackson's demands are even insulting to blacks. He is implying that they need preferential help to succeed. They don't. Black Americans are just as competent as white Americans. And the census of the year 2000 proves it.

Social injustice must be fought with justice, not preference. The government must treat all American citizens the same, if the Constitution is to be upheld. Education, self-reliance and personal discipline are the keys to success, no matter what color you are. When was the last time you heard Jackson preach that message?

source: Bill O'Reilly

 

[TheBear]

*** Baseball Cap On ***

Just a friendly reminder......

When discussing the topic in this thread, (or any thread), keep your comments to the topic at hand. If you disagree with a member's remarks, address the remarks, not the member him/herself.

[noflame][/noflame]

Non-compliance with forum rules will result in official warnings, up to and including banning the offender(s) from this site.

That is all.

*** Football Helmet Off ***

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"And AA DOES allow less qualified students/potential employees to be put above more qualified people simply because they are a "minority.""

No joke!! People that had lower scores and a lower GPA got more grant money then me just because of a physical characteristic. I wasn' t happy when I found it out either.

Colleges have never made their selections based entirely on GPA.&nbsp; You're sadly and seriously misinformed if you think that.

Colleges select by a complex criteria.&nbsp; Once a person clears a minimum threshhold for admittance, colleges look at other things:&nbsp; extracurricular activities, well-roundedness (for lack of a better term), etc.&nbsp; Sometimes it includes race, ethnicity, alumni relations, etc. It has been this way for decades.&nbsp; The idea that colleges only select based on scores is an urban myth that conservatives love to keep going, but it has nothing to do with reality.

"considering all the above, why should we listen to you, instead of Colin Powell? "

Because she is right

No, she isn't.&nbsp; And Colin Powell experience and opinion far outweighs anything Cammie could say.&nbsp; He's in a position to KNOW - she is not, and neither are you.

 

[Rae]

So, Bear, is your statement above that football season has ended and baseball season has begun?

How can you take off your football helmet after you put your baseball cap on?

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by Rae
So, Bear, is your statement above that football season has ended and baseball season has begun?

How can you take off your football helmet after you put your baseball cap on?

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by TheBear
Making decisions in the marketplace based on a person's ethnicity is flat-out racism and un-American.

No, it isn't.&nbsp; For the first 250 years that this country was settled, decisions were made based on a person's color and gender.&nbsp; America has a long history of making marketplace decisions based on ethnicity.&nbsp; All we're saying is that since the govt had a hand in causing this problem, it's perfectly fair and just that the govt can help to undo the damage.

Just because your ancestors suffered under slavery doesn't mean that I or my business owes you anything.

By enacting and enforcing racism, and failing to provide civil liberties protection to these groups, the govt created and perpetuated the problem.&nbsp; Now, it is up to that same govt to fix the situation.

If this were a case of the govt gets sued (say, from someone that the govt exposed to radiation, and didn't warn them) do you really think that some fuzzy entity called "government" would reach into its pockets, and pay compensation to the family of the radiation victim?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; It would come out of our pockets, as taxpayers, because the govt doesn't have any funds by itself.&nbsp; And because the govt is the tool of the public.&nbsp; And this would happen, Bear, even if you personally hadn't exposed anyone to radiation, and even if you didn't know the person in question.&nbsp; You'd still wind up paying for the mistakes and crimes of your government.&nbsp; This is no different.

Moreover, as long as your business, or you personally, are benefitting from the govt and the public taxes, (roads, tax breaks, infrastructure, military, small business loans, etc.)&nbsp;then the govt has the right to set conditions upon receiving those benefits.&nbsp; Don't want to comply with those conditions?&nbsp; Fine. Then stop feeding at the public trough.

Every ethnic group in the world has suffered tyranny.

Wow.&nbsp; Great excuse.&nbsp; "Women have always been kept as 2nd class citizens; I don't know why you think you deserve any better, Mary.&nbsp; Stop whining".

Every group in the world has suffered.&nbsp; Therefore, we should be able to act that way, too, and expect to get away with it. Wonder if Reilly thinks the "I don't gotta pay" attitude applies to rape, theft, and other such acts?


&nbsp;

 

[smurfy2day]

Hey y'all!

Stop baiting liberals! They'll come around one day.


And as far as the rest goes... Cammie HAS experienced AA first hand. I know this for a fact. I have seen it, experienced it, and she has been affected by it. Yes she is a middle class white girl, but who are any of you, to judge another when they say that they have experience in this?

When AA started it was for a reason. Those reasons have long since been forgotten and are should no longer be taken into consideration. As far as I am concerned, it is just another excuse for anyone to get a free handout that they probably don't really deserve.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Originally posted by TheBear
Every ethnic group in the world has suffered tyranny.&nbsp;

That is a GREAT point! Hey, my ancestors are Native American and Irish...obviously both groups were treated pretty poorly, The NAs when they were killed and robbed, and the Irish when they moved here in the late 1800s and early 1900s....so should I get reparations then? I mean, come on, we're talking about living in the past here, and paying for past mistakes...

 

[two feathers]

Originally posted by Cammie
my ancestors are Native American (they)were treated pretty poorly...they were killed and robbed. I mean, come on, we're talking about living in the past here, and paying for past mistakes...

as any one with native blood running to and fro their heart would know, the killing and the robbing continues to this day. the blatant mistreatments are not all in the past, they exist in the present.

 

[two feathers]

Originally posted by Cammie
Imagine this situation: you live in the ghetto. Your parents are dirt-poor, and people are killed outside of your house all the time. You go to high school, and make good grades, because you want to get out. Not only do you make good grades, you get a full ride to college, where you become a success in the world. THAT is what happens when people stop living in the past.

have you ever been to a ghetto? or a red ghetto, for that matter? the school in a village where i lived was, educationally, in sorry shape. by graduaton, students were at least three years behind the level that a "normal" north american student graduated at. this is a result of government policies enacted in the past that are affecting the present and the future of children.

i have a big problem with that.

 

[coastie]

I don't think genetic make-up is a determining factor of a persons sincerity, Two Feathers

Cammie, as far as the Irish thing goes... we aren't considered to be included on the list of persecuted peoples... because all white people are lumped into one category... caucasian... and historically "caucasions" weren't persecuted, only small groups of them. I would bet that most people in the US have no idea how poorly the Irish suffered in the US let alone understand what's been happening in Ireland for the last few hundred years. I hear that the Coast Guard discharged a guy because he had Sinn Fein tattoos and they asserted that Sinn Fein was associated with terrorist regimes.

Clear cut racial stereotyping if you ask me.

I consider the concept of reparations in the form of currency as completely ludicrous.

"give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."

Furthermore, Cammie, I agree with some of what you say, I am not fond of affirmative action in the work place. I think that the best way to combat the education problems is to put more money into the school systems in poorer communities. I think that if we start at the root of the problem, we can resolve it.

Affirmative action has been aronud long enough now to either prove that it's working or show that it doesn't. However, gradual improvement of the situation for minories is to be expected considering the fact that we do live in a rather progressive society now. But it's difficult to discern between the inevitable gradual improvement and improvement due to Affirmative action.

While I understand and whole heartedly agree with the purpose and goals of AA, I don't think that it's helping anyone except for an occassional senator or congressman who sends a few more token minorities to college than the other. I think that AA is more a political platform than a serious route to reslove issues that have plagued our country for centuries.

As far as in the work force... for Sacramento Police Department 4 years ago... the hiring proccess is based on tests and points. For instance, a person with prior military experience got 2 extra points, a person with a degree in criminal justice got 2 extra points, and then the scores from your tests and evaluations were factored in. If you were a minority (which means something much different in California than it probably means elsewhere in the US) you got 4 extra points.

That isn't fair, and it isn't fair, but his was done because there was a quota that the city had to meet (obviously a political agenda since Sacramento is the state capital) even though quota were illegal at the time.

When that blew up is when the issue gained some steam. I think that the residual bickering and complaining about the system is just run off from that incident. That was (by no stretch of the imagination) an unethical political game to increase National views of Californian diversity.

 

[two feathers]

Originally posted by coastie
I don't think genetic make-up is a determining factor of a persons sincerity, Two Feathers

obviously not.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Originally posted by two feathers
have you ever been to a ghetto? or a red ghetto, for that matter? the school in a village where i lived was, educationally, in sorry shape. by graduaton, students were at least three years behind the level that a "normal" north american student graduated at. this is a result of government policies enacted in the past that are affecting the present and the future of children.

i have a big problem with that.

WOW. Last I heard, in America, people have the right to pack up and MOVE from a bad situation...I've seen ghettos, and if I lived in one, I'd pack up my family and move...

 

[juiblex]

Originally posted by Cammie
WOW. Last I heard, in America, people have the right to pack up and MOVE from a bad situation...I've seen ghettos, and if I lived in one, I'd pack up my family and move...

er, and live where? ghettos arent exactly apartments on Manhattan island, people are there because they dont have enough money to get out. You post reeks of a middle-class lack of understanding about the poor suburbs. lets go to dictionary.com!

A section of a city occupied by a minority group who live there especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure.

think about it.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Really? Then why are there people who get out of that life EVERY SINGLE DAY? You go to a suburb, and work in McDonald's or SOMETHING until you get on your feet. There are SO many programs to get people out of the ghetto...

And being 16 and hooked up to the internet, I'm sure you've had SO many experiences in the ghetto...and your insults really have to stop. I am not lacking understanding, or am I stupid. I'm simply looking at it from a standpoint that if people want out bad enough, they'll get out. And that is common sense.

 

[wildernesse]

People do have the right to move, but it is expensive. Most people who live in ghettos are living in subsidized housing--they're not paying market rate for rent. If they want to move out, they are going to need to be able to afford to move, which means moving expenses, security deposits, getting your utilities turned on, paying market rate rent, etc.

It costs a lot to move--and if you're not able to save much because you're not making much, then tough cookies. Plus, if you have a job near where you live and you move to a better place, then you're probably going to be a fair bit away from where you were before. Do you get a new job and when do you have time to do that?

People can move out and have every right to--but it's very tough. Often people get sucked back in before they make it out, and then it's time for the next generation to try. Why do you think people stay, Cammie?

Also, regarding reservations--they're tough places to live and they don't get enough funding or support. Many Indian reservations have the highest addiction, suicide, and unemployment rates in the nation. Not a lot of hope in many of those places. Indians have a very, very low success rate in college--even in tribal colleges. College! What am I talking about, they have a very low success rate in elem. and secondary schools as well, if we're talking reservation schools.

Regarding the Irish--it's a lot easier to blend in when you look like "good" people. Change your speech patterns and shop in the right places, no one needs to know. Which is why they assimilated so quickly. The Irish were treated like vermin when they arrived and were discriminated against a great deal especially in the large cities up North. Mostly because they were Catholics.

By the way, they weren't considered real "white" people--they were Irish. It's only now that Irish have been assimilated into everyday people, that we don't think of them as something different. They certainly weren't considered "white" by the standards of the time. They were a mongrel people fit only to do the basest of work--but *they* exploited their skin color to do blacks and Chinese out of labor--why give work to a colored person over a light-skinned person? They climbed out of the slums on the backs of other workers simply by the good fortune of being light-skinned.

I can't say that I blame them--altho I wish that our society hadn't been structured that way and wasn't still bearing the vestiges of that prejudicial society.

Multicultural classes have a purpose--they expose you to a greater variety of ideas than just "Lots of people immigrated to the U.S. Now we have a melting pot." I never would have know about the struggles of Irish immigrants (or Chinese and other Asians) in our history without them. It's interesting.

--tibac

 

[Blindfaith]

I'd like to remind the posters of the following;

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If this cannot be adhered to, the thread will be closed.

Thank you.