• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Affirmative Action - Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
CyNix said:
For what purpose? Do you think that blacks are less likely to be accepted into a university because of race? No. So they have a disadvantage because of the inner city schools which they often attend? What about the poor white kids who live in those same school districts?

Why not homeschool like my parents did. Anyone who is willing can do it. Neither my mom or dad did have degrees. Nor did they spend more that $100 a year in materials, yet I was accepted at a local community college at 13.

Poor Schools=Poor Education = Poor SAT Scores or No SAT Scores=Not Getting into College

It's about economics and how that relates to the education you recieve.

The fact is poor people do not as good an education as those in better economic standards. Does poor = people of color absolutely no, but it often does. Until education is equla for all in this country we need quotas.

No anyone who is willing cannot homeschool, most poor people are the working poor.

You raise a good question though what about disadvantaged white kids (poor), should also recieve some sort of preferential treatment.
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Blessed75 said:
Oh for petes sake - it is 2004 and this shouldn't even BE an issue - I know, I know mom - it is -

I say EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL. But what do I know? (um, NOT ONE WORD from the peanut gallery)

It is equal rights for all, but ti really isn't an issue of equal rights, that is the misconception. It's about the economics of education and how you recieve a much better education if you live in a middle class area as opposed to a poor neighborhood. Poor neighborhood= Poor Schools.
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
From another thread I started today:

mhatten said:
A Positive Story That Highlights the Disparity in Education


Earlier in the week I started a thread regarding Brown vs Board of Education and a study done by The Harvard Civil Rights Project which highlighted the unequal education received by low income students. Here is a positive story about a class of fifth graders in a run down inner city Chicago school documenting the problems in the school to raise support for a new school. The teacher especially and the principal are to be commended for involving the students in this positive political action. That is teaching the students many many lessons.

Published on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

America's Crumbling Infrastructure
Fifth Grade Students at a Crumbling Chicago Elementary School Challenge Political Indifference

by Ralph Nader

Byrd Community Academy is a crumbling elementary school in Chicago next to one of the largest and most perilous public housing projects -- Cabrini-Green. It also is the location of one of the more spectacular fifth grade classes in the country.

In Room 405, since December, the entire course curriculum is devoted to one project and one goal -- document the terrible disrepair and lack of facilities of the school and build community, state and national support for a new school!

I asked their teacher, Brian Schultz, how this came to be? He said he asked the 19 students in this class, all African-Americans from low-income families, what they wanted to work on. They replied "our school." Reading, writing and arithmetic -- they learn those and much more through this one single, expanding mission.

The youngsters appear transformed. Their attendance rate is 98 percent and coming from a part of Chicago rife with drugs, street violence, gang activity, physical deterioration and unemployment, this is testimony to their interest. They design each part of their research and action strategy. They learn how to do surveys, write different letters of support from politicians, community leaders and from their own peers. Nine hundred students from other schools have expressed their support.

I asked their teacher, Mr. Schultz, about his support for such a unique program by his superiors. "My principal and the other teachers are very approving," he said.

Looking over the students' work product so far, I noticed a methodical sequence for their rationale. First they listed 89 "problems that affect ourcommunity and us." They fit their school needs with their community at large in a kind of free association. Project Citizen, as they call their initiative, then zeroed in on their school -- no stage or auditorium, rest rooms dirty and broken, no lunch room -- eat in hallway, heat does not work, need to wear coats, no air conditioning, bullet holes/cracks in windows, few books in the library, broken fences outside, no attached gym. They learned how to take photos of what they verbally describe. They each wrote a description of their school.

Together they put together the comprehensive Action Plan. I looked at it in terms of what the students have to learn to implement it and what it takes out of the students. It sure does not demand memorization, regurgitation and vegetation as so much school subjects demand. It taps into almost every course taught except laboratory sciences.

Interviews, video documentary, expository writing, letters/emails, direct action, surveys, petitions, news releases, photography fundraising and research. They're into the costs for the new school, where the money has to come from, the position of the Board of Education (distant), the response from the elected officials (mostly cool up to now) and how to get media for their cause (they have been interviewed by the Chicago Tribune and NPR, among several news outlets).

Their self-confidence and maturity are growing. They sense that they have started a process of change. They know about polite recognition for what they are doing that is just window-dressing. Vice President Cheney responded to their letter, wishing them luck, for instance.

As a student letter "to whom it may concern" said: "It teaches us about how the government works and how we can affect public policy change even as fifth graders (age ranges from 10 to 12 years). The letter concludes: "We would like to invite you to see our school for yourself. We do not think that you would let your kids come to a school that is falling apart. ...The problems are not fixable and would cost too much to fix. Byrd Academy needs a new school building."

The Byrd Academy students, their teacher and principal, Joseph Gartner (joseph.f.gartner@cps.k12.il.us) may have started something. Schools need basic repairs or replacement all over our country -- hundreds of billions of dollars of work projects that cannot be shipped to China.

Maybe George W. Bush will divert his attention as Mayor of Baghdad and start paying attention to these schools and their needs with some of that money he is wasting in the massive military budget that now takes half of the federal government's operating expenditures.


http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0420-09.htm

FAIR USE NOTICE
This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.
 
Upvote 0

brewmama

Senior Veteran
Dec 14, 2002
6,087
1,011
Colorado
Visit site
✟35,218.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hmm,it didn't used to be that way. I believe it was Thomas Sowell who said he grew up in Harlem and at that time SATs were not that different between blacks and whites. And this was before the Civil Rights movement. Now, what else could possibly have changed since then that could cause such a devastating effect on black children in urban areas?
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Rocinante said:
Mhatten,

You think WHAT should be eliminated at the job level? Discrimination?

Affirmative Action has already been eliminated by your right-wing "friends."

Affirmative Action is absolutely necessary in all areas of life.......as Cy's post so graphically illustrates.

:cool:

I disagree with you about afirmative action at the job level, bu *** definitley needed in secondary education. Cy's post only indicates he is unware, I am reading a sinister thoughts behind it.
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
brewmama said:
Hmm,it didn't used to be that way. I believe it was Thomas Sowell who said he grew up in Harlem and at that time SATs were not that different between blacks and whites. And this was before the Civil Rights movement. Now, what else could possibly have changed since then that could cause such a devastating effect on black children in urban areas?

Brewmama Let's establish this Thomas Sowell is not the end all to African American opinion in this country. I know you like him fine but he does not the speak for all. I suggest you read W.E. DuBois The Souls of Black Folks, he was a Harvard Graduate expand your black intellectual base there are many.


Yes it has always been that way and in Thomas Sowell's day it was twice as hard because race was giant factor and you had to be exceptional to get to his level.



Now what has changed many things, kids having kids, drugs, the sense of community within the inner city.

Also once again education is not abotu race, it is about ECONOMICS!
 
Upvote 0

Blessed75

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
4,223
118
✟5,134.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Mom - I'm tired, can I go to bed now? :yawn:

Sorry, tension breaker - HAD TO BE DONE.;)

Now, kids, when I wake up in the morning, I expect this thread to NOT be locked. Susan doesn't like it when we start slinging sand outta the sandbox and at each other. If you can't play nicely, then go to the swing sets on the other side of the park. :wave:

Nitey Nite! Sweet dreams.........
 
Upvote 0

CyNix

Worshiper of God
Jan 7, 2004
124
4
The "Thumb" of Michigan
✟274.00
Faith
Christian
mhatten said:
I disagree with you about afirmative action at the job level, bu *** definitley needed in secondary education. Cy's post only indicates he is unware, I am reading a sinister thoughts behind it.
Sinister thought? What do you accuse me of? I have nothing against any race, or against fair society. What I am against is racial discrimination. I would be behind Afirmative action if it was not based (even partialy) on race. Base afirmative action on income!

Make no mistake, I am not complaining about my income. I work on avg. 36 hours a week to pay for college. My parents can not afford any money to help me out. The college gave me 1/2 off tuition for a year because they like homeschoolers. This fall that will end and I will have less than half of the money I need because of the increased class load that I will need to stay in the program. I am trying to get scholarships but it is difficult because I have no official school records due to the homeschooling. I have a 3.97 GPA, but that does not help me much. However, in my search for scholarships I found one thing that would help me a whole lot: skin color. Oh, if only I had black or brown skin. But no, instead my skin is white. I am only a poor white kid. :(
THIS is why I am against affermative action in its current state.
 
Upvote 0

jameseb

Smite me, O Mighty Smiter!
Mar 3, 2004
14,869
2,022
North Little Rock, AR
✟129,119.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Doctrine1st said:
Well mate, it does exist, like it or not. :)


Well, slick, YOU are speaking without any fact or proof whatsoever..... like it or not :)

Give up all this smart-mouthed comebacks and actually give me LEGITIMATE FACTS.... or is it your intent only to mock my responses... just throw it back in my face and try to TELL ME what exists and don't?
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
CyNix said:
Sinister thought? What do you accuse me of? I have nothing against any race, or against fair society. What I am against is racial discrimination. I would be behind Afirmative action if it was not based (even partialy) on race. Base afirmative action on income!

Make no mistake, I am not complaining about my income. I work on avg. 36 hours a week to pay for college. My parents can not afford any money to help me out. The college gave me 1/2 off tuition for a year because they like homeschoolers. This fall that will end and I will have less than half of the money I need because of the increased class load that I will need to stay in the program. I am trying to get scholarships but it is difficult because I have no official school records due to the homeschooling. I have a 3.97 GPA, but that does not help me much. However, in my search for scholarships I found one thing that would help me a whole lot: skin color. Oh, if only I had black or brown skin. But no, instead my skin is white. I am only a poor white kid. :(
THIS is why I am against affermative action in its current state.


sorry it should have read NOT reading any sinister thoughts :sorry: :blush:

I am sorry!!!!!
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
jameseb said:
Well, slick, it doesn't exist, like it or not. :)

Give up all this smart-mouthed comebacks and actually give me LEGITIMATE FACTS.... or is this the best ya'll can do... just throw it back in my face and try to TELL ME what exists and don't?

what does or does not exist?
 
Upvote 0

CyNix

Worshiper of God
Jan 7, 2004
124
4
The "Thumb" of Michigan
✟274.00
Faith
Christian
mhatten said:
It is equal rights for all, but ti really isn't an issue of equal rights, that is the misconception. It's about the economics of education and how you recieve a much better education if you live in a middle class area as opposed to a poor neighborhood. Poor neighborhood= Poor Schools.
(Stroke of pure genius) What if the poor kids were allowed to go to the same school that the rich kids went to? Yes.... Vouchers!!!. Then the whole equation would change: Poor neighborhood = Poor kids going to school paid for by rich kids!
Rocinante said:
But the right-wingers have destroyed Affirmative Action.
But is is the Lefties who control the schools. Vouchers would even the playing field without racial discrimination.


C'mon.... vouchers is a RIGHT choice! :confused: Get it? Right? . . . Far Right? Ha ha...ha... ok nevermind.... :rolleyes:
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
CyNix said:
Make no mistake, I am not complaining about my income. I work on avg. 36 hours a week to pay for college. My parents can not afford any money to help me out. The college gave me 1/2 off tuition for a year because they like homeschoolers. This fall that will end and I will have less than half of the money I need because of the increased class load that I will need to stay in the program. I am trying to get scholarships but it is difficult because I have no official school records due to the homeschooling. I have a 3.97 GPA, but that does not help me much. However, in my search for scholarships I found one thing that would help me a whole lot: skin color. Oh, if only I had black or brown skin. But no, instead my skin is white. I am only a poor white kid. :(
THIS is why I am against affermative action in its current state.

I think that if you are economically disadvantaged you should be eligible for scholarships.

Affirmative action though is not money.

As far as scholarship for particular groups or interests or whatever Ihave no problem with that. There are scholarships for everything not just need, have you looked into that since you have a 3.97 average you should be able to honor scholarships.

and I am sorry and embarassed about the sinister thing. I really meant I am not reading anything sinister into your post. :sorry: :blush:
 
Upvote 0

Blessed75

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
4,223
118
✟5,134.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Blessed75 said:
Mom - I'm tired, can I go to bed now? :yawn:

Sorry, tension breaker - HAD TO BE DONE.;)

Now, kids, when I wake up in the morning, I expect this thread to NOT be locked. Susan doesn't like it when we start slinging sand outta the sandbox and at each other. If you can't play nicely, then go to the swing sets on the other side of the park. :wave:

Nitey Nite! Sweet dreams.........
MY QUESTION! NOW, I've just smoked a cigerette b/c you took too long to answer!

Nite Eric! :wave:
 
Upvote 0