Adventists-Bible does not prohibit all alcohol.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

Freth said:
I look at alcohol as an unnecessary indulgence. Much like going to McDonald's because you love the fries or are craving a Big Mac. Being hooked on a temporary feeling is not a good thing, because it leads to addiction.

There are qualities we should aspire to as Christians. Drinking alcohol isn't one of them.

Galatians 5:21-23 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I was known to toss back a couple beers after work, in my day, but I made a conscious decision to abstain from drinking alcohol as a devout Christian. As I sit here right now typing this, I have a crisper full of beer that just sits there. I also have a couple bottles of local wine. I don't drink it. Most of it is years old and was purchased before I came back to Christianity (2016).

The text your provide says drunkenness. That is prohibited. Drinking was not, as the texts indicate.

Now having said that, I also do not drink, and do not want to. And I think it does much harm. Therefore when I have opportunity to advise people I strongly suggest they not drink.

I worked as an auto-liability adjuster for a time, and many terrible tragedies happen because of drinking and driving.

Moreover, alcohol is involved in many sexual assaults. These studies are a bit dated, but the problem is certainly still going, especially among young people where drinking is up:

Alcohol and Sexual Assault

Thus, across the disparate populations studied, researchers consistently have found that approximately one-half of all sexual assaults are committed by men who have been drinking alcohol. Depending on the sample studied and the measures used, the estimates for alcohol use among perpetrators have ranged from 34 to 74 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). Similarly, approximately one-half of all sexual assault victims report that they were drinking alcohol at the time of the assault, with estimates ranging from 30 to 79 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996).

Finally, alcohol consumption by perpetrators and victims tends to co-occur that is, when one of them is drinking, the other one is generally drinking as well (Abbey et al. 1998; Harrington and Leitenberg 1994)

Many also have liver damage from heavy drinking. And even when they recover from the addiction they must face the health consequences.

And so we ought to take seriously the many warnings against drunkenness, and the deceptive nature of alcohol.

Therefore, when you say that drinking is an indulgence, in today's society, in countries that have refrigeration, I agree with you. And it is an unnecessary indulgence.

However, that does not give me the liberty to say that drinking is forbidden if the Scriptures do not say that. And it does not give me the right to condemn someone who drinks one drink with food a couple of times a month if they are not getting drunk. I cannot take just the negative texts about wine or strong drink and avoid the others, because they are part of Scripture as well.

So if someone takes a pledge to the Lord not to drink, I think that is good. However, we cannot condemn people who do not get drunk.

I have to agree with LoveGodsWord on this. At what point is it considered to be drunkenness? Regardless of how much you think you can handle, the effects are fairly immediate. You start to feel it right away, after the first sips.

I don't drink anymore, because I can't have it in my Christian life. I was addicted to coffee, to beer, to fast food and so many other things.

I think we all should evaluate the things in our lives that we don't think about, but are indeed barnacles and undergrowth on the good ship Christian, which only serve to slow us down in our daily walk. Any intoxicating thing is dangerous to a Christian's walk.

And that is good to cut those out, especially if you recognize the signs of addiction.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

imge said:
It's not just the Sabbath commandment. According to scripture, the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23, so any sin, which includes breaking the 4th commandment. We have an Advocate with Jesus who saved us from sin by His sacrifice, though repentance. True repentance requires us to turn away from sin and obey. Jesus even promises us the Holy Spirit to help us keep His commandments John 14:15-18. We obey God's commandment out of our love for Him. 1 John 5:3

Thank you.

Now since it was listed as off-topic by the person asking, and both you and @LoveGodsWord have addressed it, and Ellen White's view has been posted, please return to the topic of the thread.

Butterball1 · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Well then consult the OP because Jesus says John didn't drink but he did. And he also told the parable describing the process of wine fermentation, where the new wineskins are needed for new wine because it expands. And He made wine.

If drinking even one drop made you drunk we would not have the Bible texts we do. Wine is mentioned throughout the Scriptures, because they drank it. Strong drink was also referenced.

They are warned against becoming drunk because either of these if consumed very much are harmful.

If they were not drinking them at all you would hardly need warnings about the deceptiveness of wine, or to say that a deacon should not be one who is addicted to much wine, or which warns a priest not to drink when entering the sanctuary, or discussing a Nazirite vow in which you temporarily stop drinking.

You have not shown that from the Bible. It says don't be drunk.

And of course drinking more than a small drink, with food, over time, is going to be a problem. That is why it warns against much wine.

Based on Jesus' statement, yes.

No, just as the earlier poster mentioned eating is not gluttony, it is not a sin to drink wine, or else it would prohibit it. It does not. It prohibits being drunk.

The inceptive verb shows drunkeness is a process. I see nothing you posted above to refute that.

I do not know of a verse that says gluttony is a process that begins with the first bite, but drunkeness is a process beginning with the first drink.

In the small town where I live the citizens voted (and this could be mulitplied over 1000's of towns across the country) by about an 80% vote to approve that there can be bars serving liquor by the drink. Did not the people (many who call themselves "Christian") that voted FOR this send the signal that their "right" to drink is more important than the death of 1000's of innocent men, women & children slaughtered/murdered at the hands of a drunk driver on the highways, the domestic violence and abuse at the hands of those who are drink/drunk, the deaths caused by alcohol are all acceptable consequences? Drinking is more important to them than the consequences? I am to believe God is supposedly satisfied with these consequences? How would you have voted? (I voted against it, I want no blood on my hands.)

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

Butterball1 said:
The inceptive verb shows drunkeness is a process. I see nothing you posted above to refute that.

I do not know of a verse that says gluttony is a process that begins with the first bite, but drunkeness is a process beginning with the first drink.

Nor does yours say it begins with the first drink. It is a prolonged form of the word. But the word is not the word to drink but to intoxicate.

Strongs:
μεθύσκω
methuskō
meth-oos'-ko
A prolonged (transitive) form of G3184; to intoxicate: - be drunk (-en).
Total KJV occurrences: 3

The usual term for drink is πίνω.

If they were drinking wine in small amounts, with meals, that is not an issue, and they did so in the Scriptures.

Now when people drink high alcohol content drinks, or drink with no food, or quickly, or especially multiple of them, then that is a different equation.

And I don't see anything you posted that dealt with any of the number of verses that indicated they were drinking, God allowed them to drink strong drink, etc.

Drunkenness is the result of drinking too much. That is why they were cautioned not to go to the point of drunkenness.

In the small town where I live the citizens voted (and this could be mulitplied over 1000's of towns across the country) by about an 80% vote to approve that there can be bars serving liquor by the drink. Did not the people (many who call themselves "Christian") that voted FOR this send the signal that their "right" to drink is more important than the death of 1000's of innocent men, women & children slaughtered/murdered at the hands of a drunk driver on the highways, the domestic violence and abuse at the hands of those who are drink/drunk, the deaths caused by alcohol are all acceptable consequences? Drinking is more important to them than the consequences? I am to believe God is supposedly satisfied with these consequences? How would you have voted? (I voted against it, I want no blood on my hands.)

I would vote no on that measure. People could still obtain alcohol in other ways.

But that does not allow me to say that the Bible condemns alcohol, because it does not.

Jamdoc · Apr 23, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I grew up in a "no alcohol" church. This passage pretty much settled it for me. It's basically directions of when to use alcohol. If you will, it's actually a commandment.

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to him who is ready to perish; and wine to the bitter in soul: 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Well, that's kinda not the context of the verse.
The context of the verse is a King's mother telling him how to be Kingly, and one of the things is, not drinking alcohol, and she's basically saying leave that for the bums and vagabonds who are already dying let them go ahead and waste their lives cause they're dying anyway.
It wasn't a positive affirmation it was an almost libertarian view of drug abuse in that while a libertarian believes someone should be legally allowed to use heroin, they believe it's absolutely stupid to do so and consider anyone who would make that decision for themselves an idiot and deserving of their addiction and overdose death.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Well, that's kinda not the context of the verse.
The context of the verse is a King's mother telling him how to be Kingly, and one of the things is, not drinking alcohol, and she's basically saying leave that for the bums and vagabonds who are already dying let them go ahead and waste their lives cause they're dying anyway.
It wasn't a positive affirmation it was an almost libertarian view of drug abuse in that while a libertarian believes someone should be legally allowed to use heroin, they believe it's absolutely stupid to do so and consider anyone who would make that decision for themselves an idiot and deserving of their addiction and overdose death.

It was certainly warning the king from drinking so that he would preserve good judgment. In this way it is parallel to the priest not drinking when entering the sanctuary.

It also points out the use of alcohol for the dying.

The controversial point is the giving it to the poor. And this is where we realize proverbs are proverbs of wisdom, and not prescriptions for all things. Drink may help forget problems, but it also can cause many more problems. And yes, this is mainly a polemical way of saying alcohol is not for kings.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental belief #22

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with biblical principles in all aspects of personal and social life. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things that will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Gen. 7:2; Exod. 20:15; Lev. 11:1-47; Ps. 106:3; Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; 2 Cor. 6:14-7:1; 10:5; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 2:4; 4:8; 1 Tim. 2:9, 10; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 John 2:6; 3 John 2.)

Historic Stand for Temperance Principles | Adventist.org

Bacchiocchi's book "Wine in the Bible" pretty much solves it all in favor of no alcohol.. For example he shows that for Deut 14:26 the correct rendering according to Teachout is that yayin and shekar are used together in that verse to consitute a hendiadys - that is to express the same idea. In this case "satisfying grape juice".

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
Bacchiocchi's book "Wine in the Bible" pretty much solves it all in favor of no alcohol

I read it. I don't think it solves it, but if you want to give it a shot, then post his arguments.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
Bacchiocchi's book "Wine in the Bible" pretty much solves it all in favor of no alcohol.. For example he shows that for Deut 14:26 the correct rendering according to Teachout is that yayin and shekar are used together in that verse to constitute a hendiadys - that is to express the same idea. In this case "satisfying grape juice".

tall73 said:
I read it. I don't think it solves it, but if you want to give it a shot, then post his arguments.

I am just giving a few examples -- as someone else has already noted - Adventists noticing that the Bible does not support the recreational consumption of drugs including alcohol - is not unique to Adventists. So my interest in getting to every last comment on the topic is limited.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
Bacchiocchi's book "Wine in the Bible" pretty much solves it all in favor of no alcohol.. For example he shows that for Deut 14:26 the correct rendering according to Teachout is that yayin and shekar are used together in that verse to consitute a hendiadys - that is to express the same idea. In this case "satisfying grape juice".

Some strong grape juice, huh?

Notice both are mentioned in the following texts. Do you think it is grape juice?

Lev_10:9 “Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations.

Pro_20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

Pro_31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink

Isa_28:7 These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed by wine, they stagger with strong drink, they reel in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
"satisfying grape juice".

Num 6:3 he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Wine/strong drink are differentiated from juice of grapes.

Leaf473 · Apr 23, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Well, that's kinda not the context of the verse.
The context of the verse is a King's mother telling him how to be Kingly, and one of the things is, not drinking alcohol, and she's basically saying leave that for the bums and vagabonds who are already dying let them go ahead and waste their lives cause they're dying anyway.
It wasn't a positive affirmation it was an almost libertarian view of drug abuse in that while a libertarian believes someone should be legally allowed to use heroin, they believe it's absolutely stupid to do so and consider anyone who would make that decision for themselves an idiot and deserving of their addiction and overdose death.

I agree with what you're saying about Kings not drinking alcohol.

The interpretation you present of the rest of the passage is a possible reading, but I don't think it is the only possible reading.

I think there are legitimate uses for painkillers, and I believe alcohol would have been the drug of choice at that time and place.

Jamdoc · Apr 23, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I agree with what you're saying about Kings not drinking alcohol.

The interpretation you present of the rest of the passage is a possible reading, but I don't think it is the only possible reading.

I think there are legitimate uses for painkillers, and I believe alcohol would have been the drug of choice at that time and place.

Possibly, but I think the context leans me towards the way I interpret it. The person speaking it and the person being addressed, are royalty, so.. they're going to have a less flattering view of those beneath them.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Num 6:3 he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Wine/strong drink are differentiated from juice of grapes.

Numbers 6
NASB
Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, namely, the vow of a Nazirite, to live as a Nazirite for the Lord, 3 he shall abstain from wine (yayin) and strong drink(sekar); he shall consume no vinegar, whether made from wine (yayin) or strong drink(sekar), nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh (lah) or dried grapes (enab). 4 All the days of his consecration he shall not eat anything that is produced from the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.

As you know from your reading of "Wine in the Bible"

"Teachout notes that shekar like yayin can be used for grape juice as well as for wine. (Duet 29:6, Num 28:7, Ex 29:40) The verb shekar ... means to 'drink deeply' as we see in Hagai 1:5-6 and Song of Solomon 5:1. Thus the idea of drunkeness is not the innate meaning of the noun or verb form, but is determined by context and the beverage being consumed"

In the case of Deut 14:26 the context is "before the Lord" and as Teachout points out - in order to rejoice properly before the LORD one would have to be sober.

Dale · Apr 23, 2021

imge said:
How many Adventist threads do we need? Just my two cents I would never spend so much time on something I didn’t believe in. That’s why I think there are so many people who respond to the Sabbath threads, somewhere down deep is your conscience trying to tell you that God’s Ten Commandments are a unit and cannot be separated or be erased.

On the topic:
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker,
Strong drink is a brawler,
And whoever is led astray by it is not wise

Imge, do you always start off by saying that the whole thread is out of line? You've done this before and it gets pretty tiresome. I get the point. You can't answer the argument, so you attack the poster.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
NASB
Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, namely, the vow of a Nazirite, to live as a Nazirite for the Lord, 3 he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall consume no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. 4 All the days of his consecration he shall not eat anything that is produced from the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.

Perhaps you didn't finish this thought? But it mentions separately wine/strong drink, and grape juice. So they are not the same.

As you know from your reading of "Wine in the Bible"

"Teachout notes that shekar like yayin can be used for grape juice as well as for wine. (Duet 29:6, Num 28:7, Ex 29:40) The verb shekar ... means to 'drink deeply' as we see in Hagai 1:5-6 and Song of Solomon 5:1. Thus the idea of drunkeness is not the innate meaning of the noun or verb form, but is determined by context and the beverage being consumed"

In the case of Deut 14:26 the context is "before the Lord" and as Teachout points out - in order to rejoice properly before the LORD one would have to be sober.

Professor Teachout appears to have just taken the texts he prefers not to be alcoholic and ruled it so. None of those make it clear it is grapejuice.

And the notion of the context of rejoicing "before the Lord" means it cannot be fermented does not work in light of Isaiah 25.

Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

well-aged wine, aged wine well refined.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Perhaps you didn't finish this thought? But it mentions separately wine/strong drink, and grape juice. So they are not the same.

as I noted - the same word can mean either wine or strong drink depending on context. And this goes for both shekar and yayin

====================================

"Teachout notes that shekar like yayin can be used for grape juice as well as for wine. (Duet 29:6, Num 28:7, Ex 29:40) The verb shekar ... means to 'drink deeply' as we see in Hagai 1:5-6 and Song of Solomon 5:1. Thus the idea of drunkeness is not the innate meaning of the noun or verb form, but is determined by context and the beverage being consumed"

In the case of Deut 14:26 the context is "before the Lord" and as Teachout points out - in order to rejoice properly before the LORD one would have to be sober.

Numbers 6
NASB
Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, namely, the vow of a Nazirite, to live as a Nazirite for the Lord, 3 he shall abstain from wine (yayin) and strong drink(sekar); he shall consume no vinegar, whether made from wine (yayin) or strong drink(sekar), nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh (lah) or dried grapes (enab). 4 All the days of his consecration he shall not eat anything that is produced from the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
as I noted - the same word can mean either wine or strong drink depending on context. And this goes for both shekar and yayin

Num 6:3 he shall separate himself from wine (Yayin) and strong drink (shekar). He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice (mishrah) of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Wine and strong drink are distinguished from the juice of grapes.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
In the case of Deut 14:26 the context is "before the Lord" and as Teachout points out - in order to rejoice properly before the LORD one would have to be sober.

Already addressed. that supposition doesn't hold in light of Isaiah 25 where rejoicing before the Lord certainly involves fermented wine.

Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

Well-aged wine, aged wine well refined.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Num 6:3 he shall separate himself from wine (Yayin) and strong drink (shekar). He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice (mishrah) of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Wine and strong drink are distinguished from the juice of grapes.

The point you keep missing is that yayin and shekar are both translated as the fresh grape juice and as alcoholic beverage depending on context. By contrast I think mishrah is innately fresh.

You appear to be trying to turn this so that yayin and shekar are innately alcohol with no exceptions and that is not the case in the Bible.

Adventists-Bible does not prohibit all alcohol.

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