Adventist Hermeneutics

Lets take the Commandments first

The Bible -

Eph 6:2 says that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" and it is that "unit" where it is the 1st commandment with a promise that Paul says is still valid even in the NT. There is only one unit of Law in all of scripture where the 5th commandment is "the first commandment" with a promise -- and that is the "Ten Commandments".

Notice that when James 2 quotes from the commandments - it includes quoting from the Ten Commandments.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ uses "Sola scriptura" method to refute the "traditions" of the magisterium of his day - and there he calls the "Commandment of God" = "Word of God" = "Moses said" -- and quoted the 5th Commandment.

And of course in the New Covenant of both Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-10 God "Writes His LAW on the heart and mind" and exegesis tells us that in Jeremiah 31 you have to define then term "Law" as Jeremiah would have known it. (In proper context).

As for Sabbath - it is one of the Ten Commandments - and the Bible does not say "one day seven - of your choosing - is the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God" -- but rather "The 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God".

And of course we have many examples in the book of acts where Christians are attending worship services Sabbath after Sabbath - with gospel preaching to both Jews AND Gentiles going on "every Sabbath". No such statements of that kind in all of the NT for "week-day-1".

========== as for objective sources -- lets take non-SDA pro-Sunday sources that admit to this continued authority of the TEN Commandments --==============

Let's start by taking section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as the first example. Then the "Westminster Confession of Faith" if you are also interested in that.

The a quote from D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments.

Then a quote from some Catholic sources.

This is clearly a pro-Sunday source - but notice what the say about the TEN Commandments and how they are still applicable to Christians.


Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19

Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith"
-- CH Spurgeon

The Perpetuity of the Law of God

Another pro-Sunday source - also admitting to the fact that all TEN of the TEN Commandments apply to Christians.



Here we have section 19 of the Westminster -

Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19
Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.[/QUOTE]

Now a pro-Sunday source admitting specifically to the fact that the Sabbath Commandment itself is still binding -- though he prefers to re-imagine it to say "one day in 7" or something like that.

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http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html


THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

Speaking of objectivity - we are objective enough to admit that we see truth in some of the things that our Catholic friends are saying on this subject --

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There is certainly a lot of truth in what our Catholic friends are saying here --

Dies Domini is a Papal Encyclical on the Sabbath and Sunday by Pope John Paul II.

The numbered quotes are from the Catholic Catechism
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Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

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The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

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In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

-- why then are even these pro-sunday sources so certain that the TEN Commandments remain and apply to Christians?

Perhaps in looking at these bible texts they realized that the "Ten Commandments are deleted at the cross" idea just has no long-term future for the careful Bible student.

Notice how the NT text comes back repeatedly to this point that the TEN Commandments - the "Commandments of God" are the moral law of God that is binding on all Christians.


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The TEN commandments are included in "THE LAW" the Moral Law of God that defines sin.

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

Ten Commandments quoted in NT when giving examples of the LAW.

Ten Commandments - the Law -- defines what sin is even in the NT

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.sin.



Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is THE Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through THE Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless THE law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Ten Commandments -- "The Word of God" -- "The Commandment of God" - "Moses Said"

Matt 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It based on "He who said" -

Rom 2
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?

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"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"Do we then make VOID the Law by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish THE Law" Rom 3:31

1 John 5:1-4 (NKJV)
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

And why should SDAs be happy with the objective fact that even the majority of our pro-Sunday scholars in Christendom do not go down the dead-end path of supposing that God's Ten Commandments are dead - ended... etc when they themselves do not let the 4th commandment remain "unbent"?

Well here is my summary of that



Here is an example 7 points that can be considerted claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to no-more-Ten-Commandments position.

FaithfulPilgrim said:

Thank you for your responses, they are very informative!

I especially like the D.L. Moody quotes as he is one of my heroes in the faith and I am pleased to know he affirmed a Saturday Sabbath.

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I include him as one of my "pro-sunday" sources - because even though he said he keeps the 7th day Saturday since he works so hard on Sunday as a pastor - he was still very much in favor of his paritioners keeping week-day-1 and not the seventh day.

As noted in the post I just made - he follows that same 7 point list -- of which 6 of the points appear to be legit in my POV.

Andy Stanley said in his online sermon series on the TEN Commandments -- when he finished with the 3rd commandment about "not taking God's name in vain" - that a "Form" of taking God's name in vain - is "claiming that God told you not to keep one of the TEN Commandments".

I wrote to his ministry and asked if he was ending his sermon on the 3rd commandment with that statement as a "set up" for the 4th Commandment where he knew that a lot would claim God had told them not to keep the 4th. The answer I got back was "yes - that is correct".

FaithfulPilgrim said:

b.

- Why do you worship on a Saturday?

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Ok - so the reason for Saturday - is that we all know Jesus was raised on week-day-1 according to the Bible - and that is Sunday. Everyone pretty much agrees on that point.

That alone would have told us that "the 7th day" is Saturday and not week-day-1.

The Bible says "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" Ex 20:10.

I get that it is the Holy Day for Jews and was the day God rested, but the NT seems to clearly teach that the early church met at the "first day of the week" and I have read somewhere that the Jewish day of worship was not the same day as the Sabbath.

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1. The Jews were keeping Saturday - the 7th day as the Sabbath at the time of Christ and modern science is able to accurately state the calendars and times that were in use 2000 years ago by the Roman empire and the Jews living at that time. It is no "coincidence" that Christians all agree that week-day-1 is Sunday and Jews all agree that the 7th day is "Saturday".

2. There are no scriptures at all in the NT stating that NT saints meet "week-day-1 after week-day-1" or "met every week-day-1" for worship, for Gospel teaching, as a day of rest etc.

But we DO have that very thing in Acts 13, in Acts 17:4 "Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath" and in Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath" for worship, for Gospel preaching - for both Jews and Gentiles even after they are converted.

- What do you believe about 1844 being the start of the investigative judgment? If it did start on that year, is there Scriptural support?

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This is a good question and I don't think I can answer it in two sentences. -- might need a thread for it. But the bottom line is that the 490 year timeline of Daniel 9 that points to the first coming of Christ - contains in it the start date for the vision of Daniel 8 - 2300 years. Both of these apocalyptic prophecies use "day-for-a-year" as does Daniel 7 and Rev 11 and Rev 12 and Rev 13. That is how apocalyptic timelines work.

The starting point for the vision in Dan 8 is during the time of the Medo-persian empire and the text explicitly says that -- and names them. But Daniel 8 does not get more specific than that so it is left to give Daniel an "explanation" in Daniel 9 -- that explanation includes the 457 B.C. start date that was not given in chapter 8 talking about the little horn power that comes up after the fall of Greece. That start date given in Daniel 9 works for both the Messianic first-coming prediction in Daniel 9 as well as the "Cleansing of the sanctuary" event mentioned in Daniel 8.

490 after 457 B.C. is 34 A.D. -- 7 years before that is 27 A.D. when Christ was baptized in the midst of that 70th week he was "cut off" -- crucified. around 31 A.D.

2300 after 457 B.C. is 1844. And in 1844 it would be on the day of Atonement which was Oct 22 that year. (Neat thing is that Oct 22 this year is a Sabbath - though Oct 22 is not the "Day of Atonement" this year).

So then these key points.
1. All Bible timelines are contiguous if they are predicting an event. So they can be used as a measuring line - a ruler to predict something.
2. all Apocalyptic timelines use day-for-a-year
3. Daniel 7, 8 and 9 all use that same model and are combining to tell us their story.
4. The pre-advent investigative judgment in Dan 7 is the same "solution" that fixes problems described in 7 and in 8.

-What do you think of William Miller?

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Adventists have a lot of respect for Miller and believe he was saved and will be among the saints in heaven. However he was not a Seventh-day Adventist by a long shot. After the Oct 22, 1844 date the "Millerites" fragmented quite a bit. SDAs formed when 50 out of the 50,000 Millerites decided to stick with the 2300 year timeline and try and figure out what it was that happened at that time - since clearly the 2nd coming did not happen.

Miller did not join that small group - that within a few years of that time also decided to accept the Bible Sabbath. He did not accept the Bible Sabbath, He did not hold to any of our specific doctrines that would make us in any way distinct from a Seventh-day Baptist and he rejected his own 2300 year timeline after the prediction failed -- where he got the right timeline but the wrong event -- thinking that the "Cleansing of the sanctuary" was the cleansing of the earth by fire at the 2nd coming. A popular idea back then - but not so much anymore.

in Christ,

Bob

Here is the big picture -- on the SDA official web site we have as our mission statement to proclaim (explain) Revelation 14 and the 3 Angels message found there -- the last warning message given to the world before the 2nd coming event that is also described at the end of Revelation 14.

We are the group proclaiming the "everlasting Gospel" message of Revelation 14:6-12. That chapter is describing this movement at the end of time.

The purpose is to tell everyone what the mark of the beast is - so mankind can avoid the catastrophe that is most certainly coming.

John the baptizer's mission was to warn the Jews and prepare them for the great dividing event that was most certainly coming - the first coming of Christ - the Messiah. But they would not listen.

Noah's mission was to give a warning message to the world - to prepare them for the great catastrophe that was most certainly coming.

In all three examples - God gives specific light, he provides boots-on-the-ground prophet with direct instructions from God very specific to the time and events to take place.

In all three examples - the warning message is deemed 'unpopular' but in all three cases it can be proven "sola scriptura" in that it is affirmed and sustained by "the Word of God"

BobRyan said:

Here is an example 7 points that can be considered claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above

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You said this was YOUR "summary." One point is glaringly missing: That the Sabbath was a sign between God and the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. 16 So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’ 17 It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”

So, unless you are going to go down the error-filled path of replacement theology (saying the church is now Israel), you have to recognize the Sabbath as a unique sign between God and Jews. It predates the Mosaic covenant so even with the demise of that covenant, it goes on "throughout your generations" and "forever."

But the good news is that even as gentiles who are grafted in, we GET TO participate in that moed, that appointed time where God says He will be there to meet with us.

DaveW-Ohev said:

You said this was YOUR "summary." One point is glaringly missing: That the Sabbath was a sign between God and the children of Israel.

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The pro-sunday sources do claim that - and so do I. I could have listed it. And recall that all of these pro-Sunday sources admit that all TEN of the Ten Commandments are for both Jews and Gentiles -- including the Sabbath commandment.

Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Is 56:2-8 - the Sabbath blessing specifically given to gentiles.

1. The Sabbath was made "for mankind" Mark 2:27 -- Israel is part of "mankind" - and has the Ex 31:13 gift as you point out.
2. Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6-8 give more information about why this includes

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Exodus 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

But the good news is that even as gentiles who are grafted in, we GET TO participate in that moed, that appointed time where God says He will be there to meet with us.

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Indeed - Romans 11 points to the fact that the gentiles are grafted in -

And in Revelation 12 we see that the "Church" is defined as the church of Sinai before the cross and the Christian church after the cross - all as one single entity "the woman of Rev 12" that gives birth to Christ and is persecuted by the wicked during the dark ages.

BobRyan, THAT was an excellent thread.

Sabbathkeeper&Wife said:

BobRyan, THAT was an excellent thread.

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Thank you for those kind words.

I have added this to the post above to help distill the key points for the investigative judgment in 1844.


So then these key points.
1. All Bible timelines are contiguous if they are predicting an event. So they can be used as a measuring line - a ruler to predict something.
2. all Apocalyptic timelines use day-for-a-year
3. Daniel 7, 8 and 9 all use that same model and are combining to tell us their story.
4. The pre-advent investigative judgment in Dan 7 is the same "solution" that fixes problems described in 7 and in 8.

BobRyan said:

Everyone pretty much agrees on that point.

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A lot of us [ecclesia] don't. But we don't try to argue it here.
Anyone interested, look it up online (it's available, and simple).