Adventist end time beliefs?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 3, 2020

Wordsmithing contests kinda bore me. The 2 can't replace the 10 if the 2 came first.

mmksparbud · Mar 3, 2020

summerville said:
SDA has very different beliefs dating back to the Millerites and the
great disappointment".

You do not go back far enough---dating back to the bible.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 3, 2020

Doubtless, belief is required for salvation, but since "the devils believe also, and tremble," there must be more than one kind of belief. I believe that's what James was alluding to with the "Faith without works is dead" statement.

I don't see how Bible-literate Christians can believe that people were redeemed by different means before Jesus died than afterward. The Bible is positively pregnant with evidence to the contrary. It's even implied everywhere. God is not a dispensationalist. He changes not.

And nobody railed against commandment-keeping when I was a kid. Even jailbirds new better. What's happening? Why do people want so badly to justify disobeying God?

When I became a Seventh-day Adventist, the only thing I had to re-think was the Sabbath. Sure, later on, I had to do a deep-dive with the modern gift of prophecy and the Sanctuary, but the fact that everything else made so much common sense made that a lot easier to bear (I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. - John 16:12). I admit it's no walk-in-the-park to accept truth when it cuts across preconceived notions. It's not always easy to be the red-headed stepchild of modern Christendom, either, but it certainly is nice to know why we're in the mess we're in and how God's going to clean it all up.

Hope I'm not being too forward. This is an Adventist forum, right?

mmksparbud · Mar 3, 2020

Dave L said:
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:40 (KJV 1900)

Read post 230 again. They did not. By the very wording---the law and the prophets came first in order for the 2 to hang on them. Believe what you want.

BobRyan · Mar 3, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
Indeed. Joseph seemed to be fully aware of how despicable adultery was to God somehow. Perhaps he was "saved" and it just mystically occurred to him.

or could it be... that

Jesus was telling us something about the Bible not being an exhaustive account of every Word of Go spoken for 4000 years when He tells us in John 8:56 "Abraham saw my day and was glad"

Peter was right when he said the prophets of the OT saw "the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1

And the Christian denominations that all affirm the Ten Commandment Law of God given to mankind in Eden - were right to point out that the commands we find in the TEN were given to mankind in Eden - as the unchanging moral law of God.

So that would include ...

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

so no wonder God could say to Cain "Sin is crouching at your door - but you must master it" even though Moses had not yet written "thou shalt not kill" for Cain to read.

BobRyan · Mar 3, 2020

Dave L said:
The Ten Commandments were for Israel only. ““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

Not according to Paul Eph 6:2 where all Christians are reminded that God gave them the 5th commandment in that unit of Ten as the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN.

The New Covenant Jer 31:31-33 also "just for Israel and Judah" according to Heb 8:6-11 -- thank God that includes us according to Romans 2.

BobRyan · Mar 3, 2020

Dave L said:
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:40 (KJV 1900)

The exact opposite of "These two commandments delete all the Law and the prophets"... i.e. all of scripture.

Rather those two commands in the Mosaic Law form the immovable foundation of law upon which all the law and the prophets are firmly established.

BobRyan · Mar 3, 2020

Dave L said:
But the Law from which the Ten Commandments hung, remains for believers only. The Ten Commandments for wicked

Not true --

In fact the actual words in scripture say that the LAW, the Prophets (i.e. all of scripture including the TEN) -- DEPEND on the two foundation commandments in the LAW of Moses -- They are founded on them rather than "abolished by their own foundation upon which they depend".

Matt 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Jeremiah tells his readers that the NEW Covenant writes "the LAW of God on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 and that law DEPENDS on the two great commandments in the LAW of Moses - Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18

Eph 6
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

James does not say "if you are wicked... then do not kill"
Paul did not say in Eph 6 "if you are wicked... then honor your father and mother"

BobRyan · Mar 3, 2020

Dave L said:
All have the Two Great Commandments written in their hearts. Not the Ten Commandments.

not according to scripture.

not according to James 2

BobRyan · Mar 3, 2020

Dave L said:
The Two preceded the Ten. The Ten hung from them.

Not according to scripture --

Not according to almost all Christian denominations on planet earth

which includes
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Because they knew "the Law AND the prophets" (all of scripture) is securely planted on the two great commandments. Not "destroyed by the two great commandments"

Dave L · Mar 4, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Read post 230 again. They did not. By the very wording---the law and the prophets came first in order for the 2 to hang on them. Believe what you want.

it says the Ten Commandments and the prophets HUNG from the Two Great Commandments.
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:40 (KJV 1900)

“All the law and the writings of the prophets depend on these two commands.”” Matthew 22:40 (EXPNT)

BobRyan · Mar 4, 2020

Dave L said:
it says the Ten Commandments and the prophets HUNG from the Two Great Commandments.

Founded on... firmly established on. Not "deleted by"

"The Law AND the prophets" = "all of scripture"

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Not "these two commandments DELETE the whole law and the prophets".

So then.. it is still a sin... to take God's name in vain.

Which means James 2 is correct when it picks examples from "the ten" and to claim that if you break one you are convicted by the Law as transgressors.

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"If you Love ME KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Keep the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

Matt 19 Jesus is asked - "which ones?" --- then Jesus gives a quote from the TEN.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 4, 2020

summerville said:
The Mark of the Beast was Roman coin.

So there was actually a time when people were required, on pain of death, to walk around with Roman coins on their foreheads or in their right hands?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 4, 2020

Dave L · Mar 4, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
What is "legal form?"

As a law to keep. Those in Christ have entered the eternal Sabbath Hebrews 4.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 4, 2020

Dave L said:
Look again, the sabbath does not exist in its legal form.

What is "legal form?"
If it means what I suspect it means, then neither is the commandment prohibiting taking the Lord's name in vain. So is that one a wash, too?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 4, 2020

Dave L said:
As a law to keep.

So what constitutes or distinguishes "a law to keep?"

summerville · Mar 4, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
So there was actually a time when people were required, on pain of death, to walk around with Roman coins on their foreheads or in their right hands?

Wearing coins in a headband has always been a normal thing in the Arab world.

Roman coin was the currency of commerce in ancient Israel... They couldn't buy or sell with another currency.

Dave L · Mar 4, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
So what constitutes or distinguishes "a law to keep?"

Will you lose your salvation if you refuse to keep "the Sabbath"?

Dave L · Mar 4, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
What is "legal form?"
If it means what I suspect it means, then neither is the commandment prohibiting taking the Lord's name in vain. So is that one a wash, too?

We are not under Law. Saved people do not need law.

Adventist end time beliefs?

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