Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

freeindeed2 said:

There is NOTHING that God needs to be vindicated from. This is pure rubbish from EGW.

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Oh, really?

God's name needed to be vindicated amongst the Israelites. The passage also has dual application for spiritual Israel, as do much in the book of Ezekiel:

"Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My Holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations...Then the nations will know that I am the Lord...when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight." Ezekiel 36:22-23

Or, how about:

"Against You, and only You, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight. So that you may be in the right when you speak, and blameless when You judge." Psalm 51:4

Be in the right in front of who? Be blameless according to who?

God's judgments must be vindicated. Come on, Freeindeed....

I disagree. You can't pluck verses out of their context and apply them to other non-related situations as you're trying to do with Phil 4:13.

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Then, your version of the Bible is very limited.

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." This, on its own, is false then?

And DON'T worry about me. Christ strengthens me to endure whatever situation as he did for Paul (context!!!).

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So, you are agreeing, and you don't even realise it. Every situation, as you've said, includes situations where you are tempted to sin. Is this incorrect?

Really??? You're giving yourself a LOT of credit. Do you believe that if Christ hadn't chosen you, you would have chosen him? Do you believe it's your choice that saved you?

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Christ desires ALL to be saved. So why are ALL not saved? Christ choses ALL to be saved. And yet all are not saved. Christ died for the SINS OF THE WORLD. And yet the world is not saved. Your theology is a mixed bag, Freeindeed.

I choose to be saved. Am I doing the saving? No.

You're claiming that YOU can do anything, and by your own admission, you play a significant part in your own salvation!

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Of course we do! Turn from your ways, and live, is what God Himself says!

Its like you really want me to be saying that I am saving myself. That is not what I'm saying and I will never say that.

Doesn't the Bible ask us 'How will ye neglect so great a salvation?' Is that not choice, Freeindeed?

I'm on the other side of the fence. 100% of my salvation comes from Jesus Christ. (YES! Even my response to him! From birth I was set against him. The fact that he lives in me now is ALL him and his miracle!)

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So, if even your choice to believe in Him comes from Him, then, you are a robot. What about those who do not believe in Him. They are robots created for sufferring, sin, and then destruction.

That doesn't sound like the God of my Bible.

You're putting word into my mouth (actually you're lying). There are no limits to God's power or to what he can do with it.



And man is powerless agianst sin! That's why Romans 8 says:

"The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plan to save us. he sent his own Son in a human body like ours, except that ours are sinful. God destroyed sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit." v.3, 4​

And v.37 says, "No, despite all these things, overwhelmling victory is ours through Christ, who loved us."​

It's all about Jesus, not us. He overcame sin and victory is ours through him alone!

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I agree.

I didn't write the text, I just quoted it. My argument was that we cannot save ourselves. You're arguing against that point, which means you believe we can save ourselves (with God's help), which you've clearly demonstrated by your words.

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Why do you find it so abhorrent that we turn to the One who saves?

And you call me a liar, when you keep accusing me of believing that we save ourselves?

Our faith is not what does these things. It's who our faith is in. Jesus is the source of power and HE does these things for us and through us. Our faith is not the power itself, but we have faith in the One who has all power.

Do you believe that Moses actually parted the sea? Or did God do it?

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The Bible says that Moses lifted His rod over the sea, and the Lord swept it to one side.

I agree with what you've said.

The point of my arguement is that God's power does not work through us unless we have faith in Him. When Peter turned away from Jesus, he began to sink on the water.

Because they are sinners and God's holy anger burns against their sin. They do not have perfect righteousness. (BTW, there's only one place to get it!)

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Is that why you believe sinners are lost?!!! Because God is angry with their sin?

Your logic is incomprehensible! You insist that God chooses randomly who He wants to save, and those that are lost it is because He is angry against their sin?

So, why is He not angry against the sin of those He's saving? Again, Scipture shows us that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and that He desires for ALL to be saved. So, why does He not choose ALL, according to your own theology, Freeindeed?

Where does this text say that salvation is man's doing?

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The text says that God calls us. Agreed? It then goes on to say that HE WHO REJECTS THIS CALLING is rejecting God.

You yourself deny that we have a choice in whether we allow God to save us, or not. The text says otherwise.

Now, could you tell me how your views are compatible with this text.

I'll ignore your sarcasm. The text says that the Savior desires all to be saved. There are no problems with this text. It still doesn't show that man saves himself as you're proposing (with God's help, I assume).



It does go on to say this though:

v. 5-6, "For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus. He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message that God gave to the world at the proper time."​

Jesus purchased our freedom (not us). Jesus reconciles us to God (not us).

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Very artfully dodged, Freeindeed.

My original question was thus:

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

If salvation has nothing to with man, and is wholly up to God, then surely, all men are saved according to this verse! See the problems yet? "

Where did I propose that man saves himself?

I would like you to directly answer the issue at hand: If you (as you clearly do) believe that God chooses who and who is not to be saved, and that we are totally passive in this respect, then why does God not save everyone? According to the verse above, He desires all men to be saved.

Sin was not permanently dealt with under the old system. Sins were covered, but they were not removed. In a sense they were put on hold, but not counted against them still. That's why they had to bring sacrifice after sacrifice, over and over again.

But the new covenant promised that sin would be forgiven and forgotten. This was not offered in the old covenant. The sacrifices never dealt with sin. It was Jesus who destroyed sin's control by being the ultimate sacrifice.

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I disagree, but we are going off on too many tangents.

It's not irrelevant. It's the wicked he's imploring to turn. (This is all before Christ too!) pquote]

But, I thought you said that He chooses us? So, the wicked cannot turn, only God makes them? Why does God implore them, if He's going to make them anyway, or let them continue anyway?

How is this a devastating blow to post-cross Christians who claim that Christ saved them 100%?

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The text said that after God has declared 'you shall surely live' and you so trust in your righteousness that you commit iniquity (ie, I don't have to worry about anything because Christ has done it all for me), then you will surely die....

I love that verse! It affirms the 1 Timothy passage that it is Christ who reconciles us to God. Here he promises that we will be able to stand blameless before God becuase of righteousness and what he has done for us. It's all about Jesus our Savior!

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Very nicely said, Freeindeed.

But, you have yet to address the issue. The verse said 'who is able to keep you from stumbling.' You insist that it is impossible to obey God's law, even with His help. This verse contradicts your theology.

Jon

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freeindeed2 said:

I answered. I'm still waiting for answers on several of my original posts.

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Which are?

The main thrust of your arguments is that we are totally passive in our own salvation. You rightly declare that it is Christ who saves us and only Christ. But you wrongly declare that Christ chooses to save us, and we do not choose Him.

I am wondering if you get this idea of yours from the verse that says "He hardens whom He hardens..."

If it saves time, my likely answer to your questions is, why does God not save all the world, if He desires all to be saved. Is there not another factor in this salvation.

Jon

Freeindeed,

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" Romans 6:16

Note, Paul does not say we are slaves to that which chooses us. We are slave to that which we choose.

Jon

Essentially, the formers say that no externals are considered in the work of Salvation but that does not square at all with the Bible in several critical areas.

For example;

1. Baptism,
Jesus plainly told Nicodemus that unless we are born of water we could not enter the kingdom of heaven. Isn't baptism an external public act or work representing and symbolic of death to a life of sin and resurrection to a new life in Christ?

2. Confession and repentance;
Isn't the act of confession and repentance a work of sorts to allow Christ to justify us before God? The Bible makes it very clear that this is a necessary work for salvation to take place.

3. Taking up our cross and daily following Him:
Isn't this a daily committment to Christ to die to self and allow His grace to sanctify us? This is a work that is also necessary for salvation.

I'm sure I could come up with much more but each one of these is an act that takes effort on our part to place our lives in a compliant state so Christ can save us.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

ricb said:

Please provide your source material for the claim that seal must have name, authority and territory.

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Go look at your state seal and examine it for a few minutes. What you will find is it has the name of the state, the territory it governs and that defines the authority it has over it's citizens. A personal seal like a notary public has or contains the same thing. The name of the notary, the area/s or territory that they have and that gives them the authority they have to validate documents.

Don't you mean "we" rather than "they" Jim? Are you trying to distance yourself from SDAism?

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Not at all, I personally don't have a problem with the way they are teaching this other than they probably need to clarify specifics better.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2 said:

This is the 'safe-to-be-saved' doctrine that SDA's teach. We will never be 'worthy'!

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Not true, we are worthy and it takes an act from us to make this happen when we allow ourselves to be placed under the saving blood and grace of Jesus Christ. Otherwise He is violating our free will.

Jesus alone is worthy, and his righteousness credited to us through faith is the ONLY thing that makes us worthy. We are worthy because Christ has GIVEN (credited, imputed) us HIS righteousness, not because we observe or don't observe something. It is his Spirit that seals us, and the Spirit IS God, so it's a pretty good deal for sinful man.

I know you'll somehow disagree.

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Not really I agree on the majority of this premise because it's true. However, you drop the ball really bad when you go too far with this idea and exclude literally anything we can do to be part of the plan of salvation. We are not automatons, we have intelligent thinking minds created specifically to function in this way so we can love God because we want to not just because He wants us to.

Scripture says the seal is the Holy Spirit, and you have again just said that the Sabbath is the seal of God.

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No it doesn't, it says the spirit seals us and this is the truth. A seal is nothing but a tool. We become sealed by God when we cooperate with His spirit in attracting us to the loving grace of Christ and His wonderful plan of salvation.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

tall73 said:

Again a plea--let's please pick one of the specific topics and discuss it.

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I agree but I have a vote of preferance to consider. I want to discuss what the formers consider sin to be after being saved. It seems they have conviently ignored this question for quite a while now.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Hello everyone…yet another former SDA here J I have been reluctant to come forward because I didn’t want to be identifiable to my family. Based on what I have said in previous threads I think they could identify me already so I’m going ahead and sticking my toes in this water. Hopefully my family will never look this way, but if they do I hope they will read this:

Please know that I love you and wish you no ill. I did get to know Jesus while an Adventist and I am very grateful for that. However, as you know I am no longer an Adventist and my views are far from what you raised me to have. I do not wish to embarrass you or cause you any greater pain. While I will post my beliefs freely here, know that I will not make you identifiable as I do not wish to do you or your ministry any harm. Please do not hold out any hope for me to return to Adventism because that will never happen. Rest assured that I am following after Jesus and I will never leave Him.

I apologize to anyone who didn’t feel the need for me to share the above here. However, it was necessary in my case. My family knows I am not an Adventist at all, but they do not know how strongly I feel about how some SDA doctrines are incorrect. Honestly, I don’t think I could ever change the views of an Adventist by discussing things here and know that you won’t change my views either. However, I do appreciate being able to share my viewpoint.

thereselittleflower said:

OK! I guess that means me!


.

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Hi

OntheDL said:

Once you know 1+1=2, it can never become 3 unless you didn't really understand it from the beginning.

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I may not have known some things like the Shut Door or fully understood the incomplete atonement, but I was an Adventist through and through. I believed in the Sabbath so strongly I would have given my life rather than deny it.

Jimlarmore said:

Essentially, the formers say that no externals are considered in the work of Salvation but that does not square at all with the Bible in several critical areas.

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Remember that not all formers are of one belief. We have all gone on to many different beliefs. I am not OSAS because I believe in free-will and that man must believe in Jesus. I believe God draws ALL people to Himself, but not all respond. I am not, however, one who believes our works relate to our salvation. Believing/faith is not a work.

Jimlarmore said:

For example;

1. Baptism,
Jesus plainly told Nicodemus that unless we are born of water we could not enter the kingdom of heaven. Isn't baptism an external public act or work representing and symbolic of death to a life of sin and resurrection to a new life in Christ?

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It is my understanding that the "water" represented in that text is not talking about baptism. We are born of water when we come into this world (i.e. bag of waters). Nicodemus was wondering how someone could be born again like a baby and Jesus said that we not only need to be born of water (like a baby) but born of the Spirit.

Eila said:

I may not have known some things like the Shut Door or fully understood the incomplete atonement, but I was an Adventist through and through. I believed in the Sabbath so strongly I would have given my life rather than deny it.

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Hi Eila,

Do you still hold to the Sabbath?

What church/faith do you prescribe to now, or are you non-denominational (if you don't mind me asking)?

Was there any bad experience that lead you away from Adventism? Or was it from your own convictions?

(A curious) Jon

Jon0388g said:

Hi Eila,

Do you still hold to the Sabbath?

What church/faith do you prescribe to now, or are you non-denominational (if you don't mind me asking)?

Was there any bad experience that lead you away from Adventism? Or was it from your own convictions?

(A curious) Jon

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No, I do not still hold to the Sabbath as you believe the Sabbath to be. I adhere to the Sabbath in a different way. I believe the Sabbath is resting from our works - resting from trying to be good enough. That rest is 24/7. I now rest in the complete work Jesus did for me.

I am now Charismatic/Word-of-Faith. That is not a denomination so there is no statement of beliefs I could refer you to, but I'm sure you have been informed of the false prophet. I can't count the number of Revelation/Daniel seminars I went to, and I know full well what is taught regarding the false prophet and how Adventists think I am of the devil.

No, there was no bad experience whatsoever. It was a long process of questioning - maybe 8 years before I actually left the church. I would not trust any person or book as I was in the final stages of leaving the SDA church. I went to the Bible alone and it was there that I learned that I had irreconcilable differences with the SDA church. Pretty much the only Adventist thing noticable with me now is that I am still a vegetarian, but it is my goal to overcome that. I think you will find that when Adventists leave the church and go into another church (especially those raised in the denomination) it is not a decision that comes about lightly, but one that is done very carefully and with thoughtful study.

Eila said:

No, I do not still hold to the Sabbath as you believe the Sabbath to be. I adhere to the Sabbath in a different way. I believe the Sabbath is resting from our works - resting from trying to be good enough. That rest is 24/7. I now rest in the complete work Jesus did for me.

I am now Charismatic/Word-of-Faith. That is not a denomination so there is no statement of beliefs I could refer you to, but I'm sure you have been informed of the false prophet. I can't count the number of Revelation/Daniel seminars I went to, and I know full well what is taught regarding the false prophet and how Adventists think I am of the devil.

No, there was no bad experience whatsoever. It was a long process of questioning - maybe 8 years before I actually left the church. I would not trust any person or book as I was in the final stages of leaving the SDA church. I went to the Bible alone and it was there that I learned that I had irreconcilable differences with the SDA church. Pretty much the only Adventist thing noticable with me now is that I am still a vegetarian, but it is my goal to overcome that. I think you will find that when Adventists leave the church and go into another church (especially those raised in the denomination) it is not a decision that comes about lightly, but one that is done very carefully and with thoughtful study.

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Ok cool, I was just wondering!

But - if anything - why would you not want to be a vegetarian anymore? I wish I could become one! If it wasn't for the fact that I love my chicken too much, I would! So much more healthy, especially with all the diseases and uncleanliness rampaging through the meats nowadays.

Jon

Jon0388g said:

Ok cool, I was just wondering!

But - if anything - why would you not want to be a vegetarian anymore? I wish I could become one! If it wasn't for the fact that I love my chicken too much, I would! So much more healthy, especially with all the diseases and uncleanliness rampaging through the meats nowadays.

Jon

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2 reasons actually:

1. It isn't easy to be a vegetarian in a non-Adventist world. My spouse and kids eat meat too.

2. My husband is a missionary evangelist and I will travel with him to 3rd world countries where I will be served meat or unknown food and will need to eat it so I don't offend the local people.

Being a vegetarian does not equal healthy. You can eat meat and be totally healthy and not fear disease.

Eila said:

I am now Charismatic/Word-of-Faith. That is not a denomination so there is no statement of beliefs I could refer you to, but I'm sure you have been informed of the false prophet. I can't count the number of Revelation/Daniel seminars I went to, and I know full well what is taught regarding the false prophet and how Adventists think I am of the devil.

No, there was no bad experience whatsoever. It was a long process of questioning - maybe 8 years before I actually left the church. I would not trust any person or book as I was in the final stages of leaving the SDA church. I went to the Bible alone and it was there that I learned that I had irreconcilable differences with the SDA church. Pretty much the only Adventist thing noticable with me now is that I am still a vegetarian, but it is my goal to overcome that. I think you will find that when Adventists leave the church and go into another church (especially those raised in the denomination) it is not a decision that comes about lightly, but one that is done very carefully and with thoughtful study.

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I was not raised adventist but knew of it and was baptised at a very young age. I left the church as well but not for the same reasons. I went out because I wanted to taste of the world and do worldly things. I eventually became an alcoholic while I was out there and I also became a full blown agnostic from using worldly logic and scientific training . The Holy Spirit drew me back as I got older and about 7 years or so ago I got re-baptized again. I am now an elder in my church. I went thru many churches while I was out there in my journey back to the Lord. It was this searching for the truth in the Bible as the Holy Spirit drew me back that directed me back to the SDA church.

I've been baptist , pentacostal and many many others and every time I found many inconsistencies in what they taught and what the Bible says. These inconsistencies were wide and varied but most of the time it came down to false interpretation of scriptures. God gave us discerning minds and He expects us to use them. If we find inconsistancies in scripture we most likely have a problem in the way we are interpreting them.

If I could find a church that follows the Bible any closer than the adventists I would go there.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

I agree but I have a vote of preferance to consider. I want to discuss what the formers consider sin to be after being saved. It seems they have conviently ignored this question for quite a while now.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

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Let's get this going guys or have you decided not to discuss this? If not then why not?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

OntheDL said:

A true jew is a converted believer in bible. I'm not accusing you, just responding to your list of claiming to know Adventism. Just because one was born and grew up the denomination, doesn't mean he/she knows the message.


Why would God give the holy spirit to anyone that still knowingly sins? The holy spirit is given after the person is born again. And truly converted/born again person does not knowingly sin.

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Why would God give the holy spirit to anyone that still knowingly sins? The holy spirit is given after the person is born again. And truly converted/born again person does not knowingly sin.

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How about you read all of Acts 2 and in light of what you have just said especially:

1When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.

2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit

and to understand what God is doing even more:


Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47praising God and having favor with all the people And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.