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Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

BobRyan

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3. All of our doctrine stand or fall "sola scriptura" -- with that testing alone. And that is how all of our evangelism works as well (as you may recall).


The statement above is about Bible doctrine we do affirm in our 28 - it is about the 28, you yourself just admitted that these are presented "sola scriptura" to stand or fall in our evangelism on the Bible alone.

Now you have a bait-and-switch to say that once someone who has already affirmed that point - joins the church and then "begins to kick the tires" a bit - random ideas about changes are not just being accepted off the cuff but rather it is claimed to be a serious issue and is tested to see if it flies in the face of what has been firmly established.

Paul says in Gal 1:6-9 to flat out reject information that comes "even if it is from an Angel from heaven" if it does not agree with established truth. I assume you object to this Bible detail at this point because the "context" you give is that "having already accepted Bible doctrine sola scriptura" what happens if we start "editing it".

Since you don't give any actual examples of this - I will admit to the scenario/context that we DO have some off the cuff poor-illustrations and ideas that some people get into where they use their imagination in a misguided attempt to defend/promote an Adventist doctrine and they "go beyond what is written". I had to learn to dump a lot of that stuff when I came to places like CF.
 
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BobRyan

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So the question about your logic in that post above comes up. What made you think that if God said a single word to Ellen White about anything - then you would have to toss your Bible out the window??

More like if I wanted to look at the Bible for what it said I could not do so with people who only go by what Ellen White said.

First of all I would never claim that are not at least "some people" in every denomination that get some Bible study practice wrong or that go too far on some line of thinking in defense of their ideas. So given that we admit everyone makes mistakes - why not step forward and show us one of the topics that is firmly "all Bible details" where the issue is not missing Bible details - but present ones.

So far you are sticking with examples where the Bible does not give the detail outright - but well respected non-SDA Bible scholars infer the right detail and Ellen White also agrees with it. (Which seems to me to be self-defeating for the point of your thread)
 
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BobRyan

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They would still do theology. And they would still test each statement.

Which defeats your entire "inspired is inspired" line of argument saying that once a prophet is inspired no sola-scriptura testing is possible.


However, on a practical level Adventists often don't allow this. When fellow Adventists disagree with Ellen White they quote her to settle the debate or tell them not to talk against the testimonies.

But in your statement above you do not "go to an existing SDA bible doctrine and change it" - rather you "go to Ellen White and differ with some statement".

I assume you were out in the field of the many areas where Bible details don't address the topic exhaustively and "opinions vary" where it is displeasing that person-A's opinion does not carry the same weight as a direct message from God to a recently inspired writer on that same point.

Or is it something else (since you don't give any example so far).

And you also give no response to the "Bible study on what it means to believers to have a prophet getting messages from God"

Though amazingly you hint at your view here


I think you just shot your own argument in the foot
 
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BobRyan

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Ok I know I just pointed this out - but... this is huge!! --


I think you just shot your own argument in the foot
 
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tall73

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I have not insisted on it being man with beast. I have let you develop your own definition, and then tested that against the quote. You keep arguing against the man with beast interpretation, but I have not insisted on that.

What I have insisted on with LGW is that he not try to change the definition of race. You have not done that. And I am working with your definition, which matches what Ellen White says, and what Uriah Smith says about race (he lists several groups of humans for instance). Again, I am not talking about different "species" of humans when evaluating your interpretation.

And we discussed earlier that Uriah Smith's view did seem to have the limitation that if the line were blurred then it would be a different species. He even realized this and tried to argue against it.


The mystery is why you think you got Ellen White to quote Smith's ideas - when you never did that.

Nor did I claim Ellen White quoted Smith's ideas about what she meant.

I noted that Smith knew what races were in his day. And so did Ellen White, which is why I quoted an example.

And so do you, and they all agree:


And so now we come to your answer:

I have already stated Genesis 6 can be believer mixing with unbeliever. However, he injected race into the text as it is not there. Ellen White and you do the same. And none of you give a biblical reason. Henry is interpreting based on inference, as you acknowledged earlier. And you are accepting Ellen White's comments.

I note that you see that as the solution to the pre-flood argument. While it does read into the text, I don't have an issue with your proposal that it is consistent with Ellen White's other comments, and so makes an internally consistent resolution to the pre-flood quote, and therefore most Adventists have not had any problem with that part of the equation. As I noted earlier, it is the post flood comment where things do not match up. Some Adventists have noted this as well:

“Amalgamation”: Ellen White’s Most Controversial Statement

The author notes he co-authored the Ellen White Encyclopedia with Timothy Standish. In that they reviewed the arguments for this quote. He thinks it is her most difficult quote to resolve. And there are a number of reasons for that, but they all involve the post-flood part of the quote.

If that was all she wrote, then this would not be her most controversial statement. Yet she goes on to state:


“[T]he confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.”


So let's look at your resolution of the post-flood statement.

And it is "irrefutable" that given the unmixed state of Noah's family ALL believing in the one true God - they eventually divided up into race where some had embraced full-on paganism and a very few retained the true faith of God.

You seem to be treating Noah as a new race, though by your earlier logic he is part of the already corrupted race of Seth. However, that is fine, the flood is a reset, where all the amalgamated animals were not let in the ark per Ellen White, and Noah's family started fresh. And then you posit they eventually divided up into races, some embracing paganism, and some not.

That is where the breakdown occurs. First of all, there was no one to intermarry with. So when someone departed it was not from intermarrying initially.

Second, her quote says:

Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.

Now because I am working in your framework of men with men, let's take the animal portion out completely.


Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man as may be seen in certain races of men.

This quote is only referring to after the flood. It is saying that it can be seen in her day that there is amalgamation in certain races of men.


That means there are at least two races in her day that she can see this intermarriage and idolatry.


But it also means there are other races she cannot. You have not identified those. None of the various races today are without intermarriage or unbelievers. There is no race after the flood that has been pure. Israel was God's chosen people and they had many times when nearly the whole nation was idolatrous. So if there are signs of amalgamation you can see it would be seen in all races.

Now spell out what the signs are that you can see. And spell out the races not so effected. And you can't say Noah's race, because it is not longer here other than the various races it broke into, and they all have "amalgamation" by your definition. And the first apostasy in Noah's line was not by intermarriage, because there was no one else to marry but their own line.

The whole notion that you are stating there were pure races and defaced races in Ellen White's time is ridiculous. Every race has intermarriage and unbelievers.

That is why the experts writing the Ellen White Encyclopedia found the quote the most difficult. Because the proposed solutions don't make sense with the post-flood quote.

And that is why there are multiple ones to begin with. And it is why he at the end of the article says that Ellen White edited it out of the later versions such as Patriarchs and Prophets, and so he seems to indicate that was her revising her position.
 
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tall73

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We don't use Ellen White to define, teach and promote doctrine - and you know it.

To teach to outsiders, no. To define to insiders, one hundred percent you do. Because anyone who disagrees with what she is written is said to be against the Testimonies and their argument is not to be heard.


And I note that is internally consistent, and you must do that.



I did answer it. I said if you think she is inspired you must believe it. And you must accept it. And you do. And Adventists use it to interpret things the Bible does talk about whenever there is a dispute.


Indeed I did address it. Agabus can give a message. And they received it.

And once you consider Ellen White a prophet you receive it. And I did not state otherwise. But then Ellen White writes not to entertain Scripture arguments against Adventist doctrine from current Adventists. So she doesn't want anyone who knows the issues to question Adventist doctrine, or her, which are directly linked.

And anyone in Sabbath School who mentions a view on the Bible not in line with Ellen White's comments, whether on doctrine or not, is reprimanded and told they are wrong because of Ellen White.

So you are not allowing Adventists to examine the Scriptures and test Adventist doctrine or Ellen White.

And you place her above Scripture, because you use her to interpret it.

So far you are only posting about details NOT in the Bible where Ellen White AGREES with non-SDA Bible scholars. That seems a bit self defeating.

I have already quoted Ellen White telling people not to entertain Scriptural arguments by Adventists against the Pillars.

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {1SM 161.2}
 
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BobRyan

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To teach to outsiders, no. To define to insiders, one hundred percent you do. Because anyone who disagrees with what she is written is said to be against the Testimonies and their argument is not to be heard.

Well then you might want to "visit" a few SDA Sabbath School classes where Q&A is always welcomed and Bible answers to Bible questions among members (not just visitors) happens every week.
 
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BobRyan

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I did answer it. I said if you think she is inspired you must believe it. And you must accept it. And you do.

So your position is that the Bible statement on this is to go with what God's messenger says as opposed to guessing etc?

Indeed I did address it. Agabus can give a message. And they received it.

So they can test all doctrine by the Bible AND They can accept Agabus' statement EVEN though no existing Bible text predicted the same detail he just predicted? That is fine in your POV right?

But then Ellen White writes not to entertain Scripture arguments against Adventist doctrine from current Adventists.

Which is a bit of a stretch to wrench her statement out of context to such an extreme. You realize that is the part that is hard to swallow since that is not what we do or ever did - right?
 
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tall73

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Well then you might want to "visit" a few SDA Sabbath School classes where Q&A is always welcomed and Bible answers to Bible questions among members (not just visitors) happens every week.


I have. And if anyone disagrees with Ellen White it is shut down. And not just with Scripture.
 
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tall73

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Which is a bit of a stretch to wrench her statement out of context to such an extreme. You realize that is the part that is hard to swallow since that is not what we do or ever did - right?

It is not hard to swallow, because it is exactly what she said and urged people to do. She did not answer Ballenger. And she said others shouldn't.

It is not out of context. She states many times in that manuscript not to spend time addressing such arguments.
 
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tall73

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I addressed this in the other thread and gave an example. Ellen White certainly did say not to address such arguments when dealing with Ballenger. And since you started a new thread on it, we can get back to you answering the question on amalgamation here:

Post #285
 
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BobRyan

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Are you thereby disagreeing with Uriah Smith's book which James White endorsed, that the line was blurred?

And then some. I also disagree with what the two of them said against the Trinity.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Which is a bit of a stretch to wrench her statement out of context to such an extreme. You realize that is the part that is hard to swallow since that is not what we do or ever did - right?

It is not hard to swallow, because it is exactly what she said and urged people to do. She did not answer Ballenger.

One-off situations with a single person about 100 years ago does not "a present reality make" when it comes to what we actually see happening in church each week. No doubt there are one-off cases where someone gets so cross ways that discussion breaks down in the case of that one person.

I have seen it maybe 3 or 4 times in my life - but that sort of thing can happen in any group given enough size and time.

I
It is not out of context. She states many times in that manuscript not to spend time addressing such arguments.

"manuscript"?? That is usually code for "unpublished statement" - which makes it difficult to reposition it as "marching orders and rules of operation for every single congregation on planet Earth" the way you are positioning it here.

We have what we actually see happening during Q&A in Sabbath School and other various meetings each week - vs your claims here "from a manuscript" of 100 years ago. A statement which does NOT say "don't answer any Bible question that comes from a Seventh-day Adventist... just do that for non SDAs"

All of our open and respectful Q&A each Sabbath where we love to find Bible answers and discussion points - can't be "deleted from memory" simply because you have this certain view of a "manuscript".
 
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BobRyan

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I started a thread on the topic of doing sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and whether a denomination must stop just because God gives someone a specific message for the church. It's a practice we don't have but as seen in the OP -- it is something that is being floated around here.

I don't see that practice of "not testing all doctrine sola scriptura" in my denomination and I don't see a Bible argument for it - and so far your "one-off in the case of Ballenger over 100 years ago" does not turn that situation into "don't answer Bible questions if they come from Seventh-day Adventists" at my church, in my conference, Union, Division, Denomination etc. It simply is not a rule for this denomination even though you find someone from 100 years ago that got cross ways with leadership.
 
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tall73

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Do you not know the manuscript Bob?

It was not a secret at all. She had a message to give to the bretheren , and she did so.

And I have been in many Sabbath Schools. Other than a couple liberal churches who didn't care about Ellen White at all they would all object if someone disagreed with Ellen White.

Now not of course when there were non-Adventists around. Just when there were only Adventists.
 
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BobRyan

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If belief that Ellen White's writings were inspired is part of your fundamental beliefs, how are statements she made not doctrinal?

We addressed this point before

1. 31,102 verses in the Bible - but not 31,102 doctrines for Christians.
2. Nobody ever claimed that every word in a manuscript or every word Ellen White spoke at the breakfast table "is a new doctrine" or "is a doctrine"
3. All of our doctrine is published to the world online as the 28 Fundamental Beliefs and not one of them is "because Ellen White said something".


And in this specific case you have come up with a statement of the form: "if an SDA asks a Bible question - don't answer it, or at least don't answer it from the Bible, just do that if a non-SDA asks a Bible question". I suspect even you would admit that every SDA would find such a statement to be totally foreign to anything they have ever experienced or read.
 
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BobRyan

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Do you not know the manuscript Bob?

It was not a secret at all. She had a message to give to the bretheren , and she did so.

Then they should publish it - and tell us about it so we can start the practice of not answering SDAs who ask Bible questions (as you seem to suggest). So far that is not happening. (not even remotely). And I think you have taken your wrench-and-inference of that situation 100 years ago to an extreme that is hard to believe.
 
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tall73

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No, I would not think that at all Bob. And neither would most formers who left over doctrine. Because many refuse to talk to us at all, but especially about doctrine.

Now you say I came up with it. No, Ellen White came up with it. And your fundamentals say her writings are an example of prophecy.
 
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tall73

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It is of course available to any who want to read it on the Ellen White Website.

And she didn't apply it just to that situation. She stated not to listen to those who who bring Scripture against the special points of our faith.

And she sent the message so well to the bretheren that Andreason noted they had not answered him.


If my experience as a teacher in the Seminary may be taken as a criterion, I would say that a large number of our ministers have serious doubt as to the correctness of the views we hold on certain phases of the sanctuary. They believe, in a general way, that we are correct, but they are as fully assured that Ballenger's views have never been fully met and that we cannot meet them. Not wishing to make the matter an issue, they simply decide that the question is not vital - and thus the whole subject of the sanctuary is relegated, in their minds at least, to the background. This is not a wholesome situation. If the subject is as vital as we have thought and taught it to be, it is not of secondary importance. Today, in the minds of a considerable part of the ministry, as far as my experience in the Seminary is concerned, it has little vital bearing, either in their lives or theology. I dread to see the day when our enemies will make capital of our weakness. I dread still more to see the day when our ministry will begin to raise questions.


M. L. Andreason letter, 1942
 
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tall73

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Nobody ever claimed that every word in a manuscript or every word Ellen White spoke at the breakfast table "is a new doctrine" or "is a doctrine"

Bob, she didn't mention anything about the breakfast table. But she did say:

You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne. {5T 67.2}


So when she writes a letter to the bretheren warning against such things, you are not at liberty to choose.


Unless of course you want to reject this statement by Ellen white.
 
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