Status
Not open for further replies.

Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Do you say that because they call themselves EO? Or because they should be called EO??

The former, basically. The Eastern Orthodox churches are all in communion with each other and this communion is called "Eastern Orthodoxy" in the West, a title which is widely accepted. If pressed for the actual name of their church most would probably say they comprise "The Holy Catholic Church of Christ" or some variation thereof, also known as Orthodox or Pravoslavie (which means Orthodox more or less in Russian). In practice Eastern Orthodox is generally accepted.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
"except your own twisted view"???

That was my clue to check the screen name "Light of the East" -- ok that explains it.


Yeah. Every time I point out the verse that shows that sabbatarianism is over, it gets ignored. You guys twist the Scriptures until they say what you want them to say, just like the Protestants and the cultists.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Indeed it would be hard to find any denomination at all - that believes in the "Immaculate Conception". And of course - it is not in the Bible.

Neither is "Sola Scriptura," "believer's baptism," and "the Rapture of the Church."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,190
1,230
71
Sebring, FL
✟668,944.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Let's start with the easy part of your post - instead of you quoting you as your "straw man" to accuse me... why don't you quote me saying what you just claimed I said?

Can't do it?

Well then you prove me right about one thing - I said that someone is 'making stuff up'


If you're accusing me of misquoting you, I don't see how. I used the quote function so there can be no doubt of what post I was replying to.

I don't understand what it is that you say I “Can't do”. Can't do what?

I quoted your founder, Ellen White, from her autobiography. The copyright is owned by her estate. I drew reasonable conclusions from it. What more do you expect me to do?

I'm not sure if it matters if other Protestants said the same thing first. EW claims to be a prophetess, so she should know what the story is. I can make no sense out of her position.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,415
10,648
Georgia
✟916,693.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Catholic Church was first accused of being the little horn of Daniel 7 in the 1500s before Adventism existed right? It was in fact the most common interpretation since then wasn't it? Martin Luther championed the idea I think.

Indeed it is pretty hard to blame all of Protestantism history on the SDA denomination.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,415
10,648
Georgia
✟916,693.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I believe the point is not to debate your post, overcomer, but to provide an example of how SDA arguments assume that Rome is defining this or that for all Christianity, so that defeating or seeming to defeat Rome's argument therefore defeats whatever principle or concept is under discussion. The point of the OP, if I understand him correctly, is that because SDAs or at least SDA doctrine doesn't seem to understand or take into account that Rome does not decide matters for the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox (and never has), the arguments created by SDAs as in your post are built on faulty premises that do not actually address the theology of the early Christian Church in toto (meaning, the Greek and non-Greek churches of the Eastern Roman empire, and beyond in places like Ethiopia, India, and Persia), but only Rome in particular.

Likely that is his case. But in general Baptists also don't go running to the Pope to ask him what they should believe. However the Protestant Reformation "did take place" so also the schisms of Catholicism into varied/myriad groups. The SDA argument comes from Acts 20 and 2Thess 1 about a great apostasy predicted by the NT writers -- resulting in the "dark ages".

As concerns that particular post, for instance, the Immaculate Conception is not believed by Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox; it is strictly a Roman Catholic idea, built on Roman Catholic presuppositions and ideas of original sin inherited from Augustine of Hippo

Indeed it would be hard to find any denomination at all - that believes in the "Immaculate Conception". And of course - it is not in the Bible.

So arguing against the immaculate conception does not argue against the sinless human nature of Jesus Christ, because that's not how Jesus "got" His sinless human nature

Correct - the Bible does not say that Mary was sinless or that it takes a sinless mother to have a sinless baby - if that were true then Mary, her mother, her grand mother, every mother to Eve ... would need an unbroken line of sinless mothers to have the incarnation of Christ.

Once you admit you don't need such a line then Mary is as good a "starting point" as any for a sinful-nature fully human mother to have a sinless baby.
The point is that SDA apologetics are so narrowly focused against Rome in particular as to ignore the historical and present reality of other churches outside of her

Why not put that proposal to the test?

The book "The Great Controversy" covers the Christian age from the destruction of Jerusalem -- to the Dark Ages, and the Protestant Reformation, the Great Awakening, the 2nd coming, the Millennium, the New Heavens and New Earth.

Free - online.

Online Books: The Great Controversy

Now if what you are saying is true - then the only group that book knows about - is the Roman Catholic church.

Why not test that out? Take a look.

If on the other hand - your argument is that all the Protestant Churches were actually protesting the Eastern Orthodox church and not the Roman Catholic church -- well here is your place to make your alternate history known to us.
========================================

So then when I say "Indeed it would be hard to find any denomination at all - that believes in the "Immaculate Conception". And of course - it is not in the Bible."

we get this

Neither is "Sola Scriptura," "believer's baptism," and "the Rapture of the Church."

1. Sola Scriptura - in the Bible
Acts 17:11 "They searched the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so"
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"
Luke 24:27 "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."
Mark 7:6-13 Magisterium of the one true nation Church of Christ's day started by God at Sinai - hammered "sola scriptura" -- where nation-church tradition and nation-church commandments condemned "sola scriptura"

2. Believer's Baptism -
Acts 2:41 "As many as BELIEVED where baptized"
Mark 16:16 "Whoever BELIEVES AND is baptized shall be saved"

3. Rapture
1 Thess 4

"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

Matt 24
"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,415
10,648
Georgia
✟916,693.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Bob Ryan says that the notion that the SDA or their founder said that the Papacy or one of the early Popes is an antichrist or the antichrist is “making stuff up.” Let's take a look.
.

Let's start with the easy part of your post - instead of you quoting you as your "straw man" to accuse me... why don't you quote me saying what you just claimed I said?

Can't do it?

Well then you prove me right about one thing - I said that someone is 'making stuff up'

If you're accusing me of misquoting you, I don't see how. I used the quote function so there can be no doubt of what post I was replying to.

hint: Your quote function did not show me saying anything like (the notion that the SDA or their founder said that the Papacy or one of the early Popes is an antichrist or the antichrist is “making stuff up.”) And we both know it.
Yet you preface that with "Bob says".

For that sort of statement we would have to "quote you" not me.

Details matter.

I don't understand what it is that you say I “Can't do”. Can't do what?

You can't find a quote of me saying (the notion that the SDA or their founder said that the Papacy or one of the early Popes is an antichrist or the antichrist is “making stuff up.”) Even though when you say that you preface it with "Bob says".
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,415
10,648
Georgia
✟916,693.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yeah. Every time I point out the verse that shows that sabbatarianism is over,

That is pretty funny - you have a text that says "sabbatarianism is over"

Hint: in the NEW Earth and for all eternity "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Ephesians 6:2 - the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Even the RCC admits that all TEN of the TEN Commandments still remain for Christians.

So does the EO -

==============================


From The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com


65. Where may we find the elements of the doctrine of charity?

In the Ten Commandments of the Law of God.



490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.



491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
This, in my opinion, exposes a false dichotomy at the heart of Adventism and the prophecies of Ellen G. White, which suggests that she and other Adventists were either unaware of the Orthodox, or else did not care, owing to a desire to criticize a figure more well known and reviled among Protestants than the Orthodox patriarchs.

All criticisms in this thread can also be applied to Protestant churches that avidly dislike Catholicism while ignoring the Orthodox.
My sense of Adventism is it's myopically American-centric in its foundations. Being as the Orthodox Church isn't as powerful a presence in the US as the Catholic Church, it wouldn't be as attractive a target. You are correct, though, in saying Orthodoxy seemingly gets a free pass even though several aspects of it should be at least as offensive to Adventist sensibilities as Catholicism, if not more so. In my opinion it speaks to the ignorance the founders of Adventism had of Orthodoxy that even today many Adventists apparently don't understand how irritating they ought to find Orthodoxy if we follow their objections to Catholicism to their logical conclusions.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,366
3,630
Canada
✟750,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Idea's for spinoff threads (with tongue in cheek):

Roman Catholicism Refuted by Oriental Orthodoxy
Oriental Orthodox Refuted by Eastern Orthodoxy
Eastern Orthodoxy Refuted by Roman Catholicism
Apostolic Succession Refuted by Ecclesiastical Infighting
Ecclesiastical Groups Claiming Apostolic Authority Refuted by Their False Teaching
All the Above Refuted by Scripture.

:tutu:

 
Upvote 0

Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Idea's for spinoff threads (with tongue in cheek):

Roman Catholicism Refuted by Oriental Orthodoxy
Oriental Orthodox Refuted by Eastern Orthodoxy
Eastern Orthodoxy Refuted by Roman Catholicism
Apostolic Succession Refuted by Ecclesiastical Infighting
Ecclesiastical Groups Claiming Apostolic Authority Refuted by Their False Teaching
All the Above Refuted by Scripture

You forgot "Exclesiastical Infighting refuted by Apostolic Succession." Alas your joke is meta-refuted by my insomnia.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,415
10,648
Georgia
✟916,693.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yeah. Every time I point out the verse that shows that sabbatarianism is over,

That is pretty funny - you have a text that says "sabbatarianism is over"

Hint: in the NEW Earth and for all eternity "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Ephesians 6:2 - the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Even the RCC admits that all TEN of the TEN Commandments still remain for Christians.

So does the EO -

==============================


From The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

65. Where may we find the elements of the doctrine of charity?

In the Ten Commandments of the Law of God.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.
Note that the EO catechism you cite is not inherently definitive or binding, and probably has no standing outside of the jurisdiction in which it was published.

1. it is not Protestant
2. It is not SDA
3. It was not written by Ellen White
4. There are in fact EO members that regard it as accurate.

And "more to the point" if you have an EO Catechism saying that the Ten Commandments are dead -- well then it is your turn to produce one. I have already taken a turn.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
1. Sola Scriptura - in the Bible
Acts 17:11 "They searched the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so"
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"
Luke 24:27 "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."
Mark 7:6-13 Magisterium of the one true nation Church of Christ's day started by God at Sinai - hammered "sola scriptura" -- where nation-church tradition and nation-church commandments condemned "sola scriptura"

Nice try. Utterly false. You have failed to give a verse which clearly states: "All that you believe MUST come from the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone." Of course, this is so because there is no such verse. To say that they searched the Scriptures proves sola scriptura is not the same as saying that you only listen to the Scriptures. As we see by your interpretation of the book of Daniel, the Scriptures can be twisted (as so many people do) to say and mean anything.

Therefore, you must have an infallible interpreter of the Scriptures. And the Scriptures themselves say this about that interpreter:

1Ti 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is
the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And since you have no part in the Church which goes all the way back to the Apostles, and which is founded upon their teachings, the Church which was called "katholicos" by the end of the first century, you are not infallible and neither was Ellen White.

I notice also that you changed the wording of 2 Timothy to suit your doctrinal tastes. Suppose we take it in the original Greek instead of the mangled Ellen White:

2 Tim 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,



Further reading on the subject is available here:

Why Sola Scriptura Cannot be True


2. Believer's Baptism -
Acts 2:41 "As many as BELIEVED where baptized"
Mark 16:16 "Whoever BELIEVES AND is baptized shall be saved"

The fact that it only mentions the actions of adults who make a conscious decision does not indicate that infant children are left out of the equation. In the Old Covenant, which is an inferior covenant to the New, infant males were circumcised without having to make a "decision for Jehovah, God of Israel."

Baptism is the covenant-making ritual which has replaced circumcision as the way that one is entered into the covenant of God and made a member of Christ's one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. Are you seriously saying that in the Old Covenant, infants could come in, but in the New Covenant, they were excluded? Did you forget that this is a "better covenant which speaks of better things?"

By the end of the first century, there were clear instructions as to how to baptize small (infant) children as well as adults. From where do you think they got this information if not from the Apostles themselves?

In Acts we see two instances of whole households being baptized, with no mention of the infants being excluded. So called "believer's baptism" did not start until the Reformation with Baptist heretics who rejected infant baptism.


3. Rapture
1 Thess 4

"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

This is speaking about the coming of Christ in Judgment at the Resurrection, not about some mythological beast called "The Rapture." You get more information on this in 1 Corinthians 15, which entire chapter is about the Resurrection. It is St. Paul's great defense of the Resurrection against those who were denying it and those who were saying it had already happened.

We see this same language as 2 Thessalonians 4 in Corinthians:

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Matt 24
"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Matthew 24 is about the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with some fatuous nonsense about a "Rapture" some 2,000 years after Jesus spoke.

Maybe you missed the time indicators at the beginning of the chapter.

Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,
Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Horrid translation. The word is "aion" in Greek and means "age," not world.)

Chapter 24 is Jesus answering these questions regarding the Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That is pretty funny - you have a text that says "sabbatarianism is over"

No, what is funny is that you don't recognize that the day of worship was changed from Saturday (looking forward to the rest in Christ) to Sunday (celebrating the Resurrection of Christ, which gives us that rest).

It has been changed because we do not look forward to a rest that is yet to come. Our rest in Christ is established by the Cross. Therefore, Isaiah 66: 23 must be interpreted with that as a foundation, not with your Old Covenant misinterpretation of the Covenant of God.

The Sabbath worship was given to the Jews and to them alone. It was not meant for us. It was part of their covenant:

Exo 31:16
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. (Awful translation. The word is not "perpetual," it is "age-long." And the age of the Old Covenant ended in AD 70 with the Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem)
Lev 24:8
Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an
everlasting covenant. )(Same thing....terrible translation of the word olam)
Isa 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of
my covenant;

The Old Covenant is gone. It exists no more because the Jews destroyed it when they killed their Divine Spouse.

Hint: in the NEW Earth and for all eternity "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Ephesians 6:2 - the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

How do you miss this???? Christ is the Sabbath rest, and St. Paul is speaking of the complete rest in heaven. The Sabbath is just a sign of Christ.


Even the RCC admits that all TEN of the TEN Commandments still remain for Christians.

So does the EO -

The commandment remains....the day changed because there is no longer any Old Covenant. What you are doing when you worship on Saturday is witnessing to the whole world that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Son of David, the God/man who was the Messiah and Savior of the world. Saturday worship is still looking for one yet to come.

You have been deceived by a false prophetess.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
One other small note on the idea of "sola Scriptura."

Consider the following points often overlooked by many today.

  • The first book of the New Testament was not written until the late 40’s A.D. at the earliest.
  • St. John’s Gospel was not written until the 90’s A.D. or later.
  • The bible itself records that the official teaching of the Church, exercised in the form of a Church Council, and not the private interpretation of individual Christians, answers questions of faith. (cf. the Jerusalem Council; Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 15)
When I read this, I remembered something about the Nicene Council where Arias defended his idea that Christ Jesus was not God, but a created being (and St. Nicholas slapped him silly for blasphemy!)

Arias defended all his teachings
from the Scriptures alone!

So much for "sola Scriptura" as a point of finding truth. In fact, on this board, there are numerous competing doctrines and dogma which all are against each other and yet all claim to be from "scripture alone, guided by the Holy Spirit."

I'm sure you realize this simply cannot be true. The Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic! There is one truth, and one organization which was promised the ability to interpret the Scriptures correctly and give the proper understanding ....

and it ain't Ellen White!!!!!

Sola Scriptura is unworkable. The Scriptures must have an infallible teacher to show us the truth of these words of God to us.


  • There was not a definitive list (or canon) of books accepted as Sacred Scripture until the late 300’s A.D. and later. (Local Council of Hippo in 393; Local Council of Carthage in 397; Letter of Pope Innocent I in 405)
  • Protestant reformers removed portions of the Old Testament that had been held by the Catholic Church to be a part of the canon of scripture for centuries. Where did they receive that authority? They relied upon the “authority” of Jewish rabbis exercised 60+ years after the Crucifixion and Pentecost; 60+ years after when Jesus had established His Church and authorized it to teach. Martin Luther even wanted to remove the Epistle of James and the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation). He was prevented from doing so by the other reformers.
  • It is estimated that fewer than 10% of those who lived in the Roman Empire could read. Even if the people had been more literate, there was no printing press, and therefore, no easy or affordable access to the written word prior to the invention of the printing press in the 15th Century.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,190
1,230
71
Sebring, FL
✟668,944.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The good news about Ellen White is that she did refer to God and Jesus Christ more often than she refers to Satan and the Devil. I was starting to wonder, so I checked. In the Ellen White books that I have, she refers to Satan and the Devil about 75% as often as she mentions God.
 
Upvote 0

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,366
3,630
Canada
✟750,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Consider the Iconoclast Controversy or the Controversy Over Images that took place between 680 and 850ad. and it soon becomes apparent that appealing to "Tradition" doesn't offer any relief from false teaching or doctrine. "Tradition" has been bought and sold by corrupt Bishops, directed by Emperors and riotous factions. Those churches today claiming to hold to a former State church body are really just making an appeal to corrupt authority.

For almost 200 years the Greek State church argued over the use of images, specifically Icons and their purpose in the church…if they had any purpose at all. Many Western Christians are not familiar with this debate, at least not in detail, so I hope to give a very brief outline highlighting a few of the more interesting facts. Make no bones about it, I am unable to find any scriptural reason for the use of images, so the best I can try to do is be honest with the particulars as I have come to understand them. The debate took place between what modern historians call Iconoclasts and Iconophiles or those who rejected religious images often resulting in their destruction and those who believe religious images have a place in the Christian religion. This debate seemed bound to happen as the revelation of God in scripture came into contact with Greek culture and religion. The former rejects the use of images of the Divine and the latter wholeheartedly encourages images, statues and the like. Some Christians in both the East and West believed it was acceptable to create representations of Christ and the Trinity but there was also a group of Christians that denied any need for them. The Iconophiles believed icons were useful and even essential to worship while the Iconoclasts believed it was against the second commandment to do so. William R. Cannon points out, “A custom which primitive Christianity looked upon as idolatry was common practice in the eight century. Consequently what in ancient times had been an innovation was considered during this period as tradition.” (page 105) Diarmaid MacCulloch calls this rub of Hebrew and Greek culture the “fault line” for the old covenant forbids images of God in any sense while Greek paganism encouraged it. A similar debate can be found in the history of the Western church but it has not had the same impact on history as it had in the East. Some historians have suggested the numbering of the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) might have contributed to the use of statues by Roman Catholics who, following Augustine of Hippo neatly tuck the First and Second Commandment into one and separated the Tenth into Nine and Ten. Lutherans use Augustine’s numbering of the Decalogue and take no issue with images either. I’m not sure if this really effects the views expressed by each group considering the Eastern Orthodox use the same numbering system as Judaism and Protestantism but it was mentioned a few times by different authors so I mention it here. When you take a closer look at the details of the “controversy” it soon becomes apparent that matters of theology were passed from the Byzantine Emperor to the Patriarch of Constantinople. If the verdict was contrary to the wishes of the Emperor it was likely the Patriarch would be replaced. This happened more than a few times over the course of Byzantine history. From my reading on the subject it seems Leo (III) the Isaurian, Byzantine Emperor (717 – 741), saw a growing devotion and power ascribed to religious images. He believed this was mere superstition and tried to rid the empire of religious iconography with a series of edicts (726 – 729) forbidding the use of images in worship. Leo the III was not immune to superstition. It seems likely that Leo, having fought Islamic armies, believed that removing of images might lead to military victories. Whatever the reason behind the Controversy and it was always a political issue.

(Hagia Eirene Church, Iconoclast.)



The Iconophiles found a champion in John of Damascus (645/676 – 749) who offered a polemic for the use of images. Cannon describes John as one of the few strong theologians of the 8th century, not in the same class as Augustine of Hippo, but without equal in the West for the time period. Using a philosophical framework of categories and causes borrowed from Aristotle John of Damascus argued the Second Commandment was abrogated by the Incarnation of Christ. “If one accepted this vocabulary and Aristotelian framework, then devotion to visual images in Christianity was safe.” (MacCulloch, page 448) The Greek church essentially changed the language which framed the debate over images from art to theology. Skipping ahead the matter came to close as Irene of Athens, former regent and now Empress after having her sons blinded and imprisoned, assumed the throne. She was in favour of Icons and had a layman who was also in favour of Icons consecrated Patriarch. Patriarch Tarasios, with help from the State, held what was deemed an “Ecumenical Conclave” in 787 or what is often called the Second Council of Nicaea which effectively restored the use of images in worship. Some further political proclamations against Icons were made but Empress Theodora (843) restored again the use of images in worship. This last proclamation of the State church “effectively closed down the possibility of alternative forms of worship in Orthodox tradition.” (McCulloch, page 452) It soon becomes apparent the debate was heated and very political. Icons and other images had a cult following that garnered the support of the State. Ultimately it wasn’t the Bible that settled the issue for the church but two Empresses backing the Iconophiles. The idea that you could reach God through images is foreign to scripture. God “calls us back and withdraws us from petty carnal observances, which our stupid minds, crassly conceiving of God, are wont to devise.” (Calvin) Some are quick to point to the Second Council of Nicaea as a historical point of reference but we cannot forget the polemics against the use of images that predate the Reformation such as the works of Claudius of Turin, the Council of Frankfurt and Libri Carolini. With the Reformers cry of “scripture alone” and “all of scripture” the debate was reopened in the West during the Reformation. John Calvin is masterful in the Institutes on this subject and I have quoted pertinent sections below for your further reading. He rightly calls Empress Irene “a wicked Proserpine named Irene” in his French edition.

Semper Reformanda,

jm

from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 1: 14. Enough, I believe, would have been said on this subject, were I not in a manner arrested by the Council of Nice; not the celebrated Council which Constantine the Great assembled, but one which was held eight hundred years ago by the orders and under the auspices of the Empress Irene. This Council decreed not only that images were to be used in churches, but also that they were to be worshipped. Every thing, therefore, that I have said, is in danger of suffering great prejudice from the authority of this Synod. To confess the truth, however, I am not so much moved by this consideration, as by a wish to make my readers aware of the lengths to which the infatuation has been carried by those who had a greater fondness for images than became Christians. But let us first dispose of this matter. Those who defend the use of images appeal to that Synod for support. But there is a refutation extant which bears the name of Charlemagne, and which is proved by its style to be a production of that period. It gives the opinions delivered by the bishops who were present, and the arguments by which they supported them. John, deputy of the Eastern Churches, said, “God created man in his own image,” and thence inferred that images ought to be used. He also thought there was a recommendation of images in the following passage, “Show me thy face, for it is beautiful.” Another, in order to prove that images ought to be placed on altars, quoted the passage, “No man, when he has lighted a candle, putteth it under a bushel.” Another, to show the utility of looking at images, quoted a verse of the Psalms “The light of thy countenance, O Lord, has shone upon us.” Another laid hold of this similitude: As the Patriarchs used the sacrifices of the Gentiles, so ought Christians to use the images of saints instead of the idols of the Gentiles. They also twisted to the same effect the words, “Lord, I have loved the beauty of thy house.” But the most ingenious interpretation was the following, “As we have heard, so also have we seen;” therefore, God is known not merely by the hearing of the word, but also by the seeing of images. Bishop Theodore was equally acute: “God,” says he, “is to be admired in his saints;” and it is elsewhere said, “To the saints who are on earth;” therefore this must refer to images. In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them. 15. When they treat of adoration, great stress is laid on the worship of Pharaoh, the staff of Joseph, and the inscription which Jacob set up. In this last case they not only pervert the meaning of Scripture, but quote what is nowhere to be found. Then the passages, “Worship at his footstool”—“Worship in his holy mountain”—“The rulers of the people will worship before thy face,” seem to them very solid and apposite proofs. Were one, with the view of turning the defenders of images into ridicule, to put words into their mouths, could they be made to utter greater and grosser absurdities? But to put an end to all doubt on the subject of images, Theodosius Bishop of Mira confirms the propriety of worshipping them by the dreams of his archdeacon, which he adduces with as much gravity as if he were in possession of a response from heaven. Let the patrons of images now go and urge us with the decree of this Synod, as if the venerable Fathers did not bring themselves into utter discredit by handling Scripture so childishly, or wresting it so shamefully and profanely. 16. I come now to monstrous impieties, which it is strange they ventured to utter, and twice strange that all men did not protest against with the utmost detestation. It is right to expose this frantic and flagitious extravagance, and thereby deprive the worship of images of that gloss of antiquity in which Papists seek to deck it. Theodosius Bishop of Amora fires oft an anathema at all who object to the worship of images. Another attributes all the calamities of Greece and the East to the crime of not having worshipped them. Of what punishment then are the Prophets, Apostles, and Martyrs worthy, in whose day no images existed? They afterwards add, that if the statue of the Emperor is met with odours and incense, much more are the images of saints entitled to the honour. Constantius, Bishop of Constantia in Cyprus, professes to embrace images with reverence, and declares that he will pay them the respect which is due to the ever blessed Trinity: every person refusing to do the same thing he anathematises and classes with Marcionites and Manichees. Lest you should think this the private opinion of an individual, they all assent. Nay, John the Eastern legate, carried still farther by his zeal, declares it would be better to allow a city to be filled with brothels than be denied the worship of images. At last it is resolved with one consent that the Samaritans are the worst of all heretics, and that the enemies of images are worse than the Samaritans. But that the play may not pass off without the accustomed Plaudite, the whole thus concludes, “Rejoice and exult, ye who, having the image of Christ, offer sacrifice to it.” Where is now the distinction of λατρια and δυλια with which they would throw dust in all eyes, human and divine? The Council unreservedly relies as much on images as on the living God.

Sources:


A History of Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years Diarmaid MacCulloch Penguin (2009)
ISBN-13: 978-0141021898

History of Christianity in the Middle ages; From the Fall of Rome to the Fall of Constantinople William R. Cannon Abingdon Press (1960) ISBN: n/a
 
Upvote 0

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,366
3,630
Canada
✟750,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
2. Believer's Baptism -
Acts 2:41 "As many as BELIEVED where baptized"
Mark 16:16 "Whoever BELIEVES AND is baptized shall be saved"

The fact that it only mentions the actions of adults who make a conscious decision does not indicate that infant children are left out of the equation.


The fact that you can't find any mentioned in Church history before 250 of infant baptism refutes your tradition. Sure, we can find images, references, etc. to child baptism but not infant baptism. It wasn't until baptism was viewed as having some sort of magic involved did it because the' Tradition.

And don't get me started on Ariel Toll Houses! lol

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,415
10,648
Georgia
✟916,693.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You forgot "Exclesiastical Infighting refuted by Apostolic Succession." Alas your joke is meta-refuted by my insomnia.

Indeed - another great example of something that never worked. See the 3-pope schism that resulted in papal armies fighting papal armies. And then of course there is Pope Clement XIV who abolished "Forever" the Jesuit order in the late 1700's. Another wonderful example of what is "not supposed to happen" if Apostolic succession were valid.

BTW in the actual Bible there is only one example of Apostolic Succession -- and it was not "the successor of Peter".
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.