Adventism refuted by Orthodoxy

BobRyan · Dec 19, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
How can I find common ground with you when it is absolutely clear that you HATE the Catholic Churches,

Do you "hate Jewish synagogues" just because you are not a Jew or don't choose to believe everything they believe?

Why emotionalize the fact that I do not agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches. You pivot from "Differ with the doctrines of the Catholic denomination" to - "hate Catholic Churches" with no quote at all from me in support of your false accusation.

Why do that?

and are trying to do all you can to pull down people on these fora.

On the contrary - your statement is explicitly ad hominem - and it is specifically I who do not choose to do that.

For example you referred to one person as "that crazy woman" - but you never find me talking about that "crazy - this-or-that Catholic person"

In addition I have never started a "xyz-denomination refuted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church" thread

Monk Brendan said:
No, I do not hate Jews or their worship. I love the Jews. Besides, I have too many friends that ARE Jewish. My Grandmother was Jewish. To hate Jews would be to hit myself in the face!

And of course many ex-Catholics among SDAs as well as SDAs that have still-Catholic family and friends. This is not about hating people. Just because you are not a Jew or because you recognize certain doctrinal problems in their religion - does not mean you hate Jews.

Monk Brendan · Dec 19, 2016

BobRyan said:
Since you are willing to use Protestant Bibles - I assume you freely admit that the RCC is not the only place to find good scholarship in Greek and Hebrew - and OT and NT studies.

The scholarship in the KJV is fairly good, for the most part. However, don't assume anything about what I feel about the RCC. You would be greatly surprised.

Monk Brendan · Dec 19, 2016

BobRyan said:
As I said - neither Luther or other Protestant churches or Seventh-day Adventists have ever argued that the only errors that exist - are in the RCC. I think you and I would both agree there.

How about errors in the SDA?

BobRyan · Dec 19, 2016

Paul Yohannan said:
And I did not say there was. Rather, that Advenfist material does not take into account the more extreme positions of Orthodoxy suggests that EGW was either unaware of us or assumed us to be Roman Catholic.

Again you are out on your own limb - claiming that the SDA denomination started looking for the denomination with the most extreme views on something like purgatory - then picked the RCC and failed to select one of the orthodox sects or to at least give them an honorable-mention second-place rating for doctrinal error. That was never the point to start with.

Noah did not "arbitrarily pick WATER as the great threat instead of rocks or fire" -- it was not a matter of "What is Noah's preference today". You keep circling back to this as if Protestants were told by Ellen White to pick the RCC as the entity of interest during the 1260 years of dark ages.

A more objective logical argument on your part would be more effective.

BobRyan · Dec 19, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
How about errors in the SDA?

Almost every denomination differs with some other denomination on at least one point of doctrine. And where they do - they always claim the other-guy is the one in error. That sort of idea goes all the way around the circle of players in the religious world of Churches. We freely admit that.

so then an objective infallible standard is needed -- that standard is the sola scriptura test that Christ demonstrated for us in Mark 7:6-13

The 28 statements of belief for the SDA church is published online.

Beliefs :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church

https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

Which means plenty of room for anyone to look and to decide if they are correct or not based on what the Bible says.

We have argued the Protestant doctrine of "sola scriptura" testing - whereby all tradition and doctrine is to be tested against the Bible to see if it is in contradiction to the teaching of scripture... and so we hold ourselves to that same standard.

The result. According to Christianity Today - is that this tiny denomination expanded into the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world by 2014.

Of course that is with less than 2 centuries of growth - and not with the 16+ centuries of growth that some others have to create a large base of support by this time in history.

BobRyan · Dec 19, 2016

Paul Yohannan said:
Interestingly there is no record of Luther ever criticizing the Orthodox. Indeed some of his followers when they went to contact Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremias II were dumbfounded when His All Holiness did not agree with their novel doctrines.

neither is there any record of Luther endorsing the idea of "Aerial toll houses"

or that any non-God being is to be called "Judge of the Universe"

I don't know that he selected out a great many of the Hindu or Buddhist errors either.

That does not mean that error did not exist some place in the rest of the world - other than in Luther's Catholic church.

Monk Brendan · Dec 19, 2016

BobRyan said:
For example you referred to one person as "that crazy woman" - but you never find me talking about that "crazy - this-or-that Catholic person"

That was you that jumped to the conclusion. I have never mentioned Ellen G White in this thread, so why do you jump to the thought that I am talking about her?

I could just as easily have been talking about Mary Baker Eddy.

I have mentioned before that when it comes to me and how I think, you should not assume anything.

BobRyan · Dec 19, 2016

[B]Monk [/B]Brendan said:
And how many time has SHE been wrong?
Here is just one:
Yet another inaccuracy is found in chapter 25 of The Great Controversy. Ellen White claims that the change of the Sabbath to Sunday was accomplished by the Pope with the "power of the state":

"It was on behalf of Sunday that popery first asserted its arrogant claims; and its first resort to the power of the state was to compel the observance of Sunday as 'the Lord's Day.'" (page 447) She makes another similar statement later in the book: "Royal edicts, general councils, and church ordinances sustained by secular power were the steps by which the pagan festival [day of the Sun] attained its position of honor in the Christian world." (page 574) Before we read Dr. Bacchoicchi's assessment of these quotes, let me remind the reader that Dr. Bacchiocchi is still widely regarded as the SDA theologian who was the most knowledgeable person in the entire sect on church history pertaining to Sabbath-Sunday issues. There was simply no one in the church more qualified to assess Ellen White's statements than Dr. Bacchiocchi. Here is his assessment: "Both statements just cited are inaccurate, because the secular power of the state did not influence or compel Christians to adopt Sunday during the second and third centuries. At that time the Roman emperors were rather hostile toward Christianity. They were more interested to suppress Christianity than to support church leaders in their promotion of Sunday worship. The bishop of Rome could not have resorted to 'the power of the state to compel the observance of Sunday as the Lord's Day.' Eventually, beginning with the fourth century, some Roman emperors actively supported the agenda of the church, but this was long after the establishment of Sunday observance.
"In my dissertation FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY I have shown that the Bishop of Rome did indeed pioneer the change in the day of worship, but he did it without the help of the Roman government. What precipitated the need to change the Sabbath to Sunday, was the anti-Jewish and anti-Sabbath legislation promulgated in 135 by the Emperor Hadrian.

"After suppressing the Second Jewish revolt, known as the Barkokoba revolt (132-135), which caused many casualties, the Emperor Hadrian decided to deal with the Jewish problem in a radical way by suppressing the Jewish religion. Hitler was determined to liquidate the Jews as a people and Hadrian was committed to suppress Judaism as a religion. To accomplish this objective Hadrian outlawed in 135 the Jewish religion in general and Sabbathkeeping in particular.

"It was at this critical moment that the Bishop of Rome took the initiative to change the Sabbath to Sunday in order to show to the Roman government the Christians' separation from the Jews and their identification with the cycles of the Roman society. But, at this time the Bishop of Rome could not call upon 'the power of the state to compel the observance of Sunday as the Lord's Day,' because in the eyes of the Romans Christianity was still a suspect religion to be suppressed, rather than to be supported."

It is clear from Dr. Bacchiochi's assessment that the pope did not resort to the power of the state, as Mrs. White wrote. Rather, the Roman Bishop instituted Sunday worship without any assistance from the state.

While Dr. Bacchiochi is wrong about some of the statements HE made, it is clear--just from this--that EGW was NOT a prophet

What is supposed to happen to false prophets? Deut 18:20 KJV “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.”

BobRyan said: ↑
Adventists believe in the 1Thess 4 existence of the soul in the state that Paul refers to as "sleep" in 1 Thess 4 and most other churches reject it. But that does not mean that most other denominations think "Communion with the Dead" is a good thing. In fact they think it is not good.

Monk Brendan said:
We've been around a lot longer than any of the others. We are larger, more mature, and, because we have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we know a lot more than some crazed lady in the 1800's

Monk Brendan said:
That was you that jumped to the conclusion. I have never mentioned Ellen G White in this thread, so why do you jump to the thought that I am talking about her?

I could just as easily have been talking about Mary Baker Eddy.

I have mentioned before that when it comes to me and how I think, you should not assume anything.

Well it is unlikely that either of those claims is true - given that you have mentioned her here as we see in the quote above. As I am sure we both agree.

But no-matter I would not want to refer to someone as a "crazed lady" even if it is your suggestion above - of - Mary Baker Eddy. I can differ with others without having to resort to calling them names.

Paul Yohannan · Dec 19, 2016

BobRyan said:
The result. According to Christianity Today - is that this tiny denomination expanded into the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world by 2014.

Of course that is with less than 2 centuries of growth - and not with the 16+ centuries of growth that some others have to create a large base of support by this time in history.

This figure is as one might well expect, inaccurate. The Lutheran churches of Northern Europe, which are in communion, and the Assemblies of God, among other denominations, are larger.

Thus, the actual ranking in terms of denominational size:

Roman Catholics
Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
The Anglican Communion
Lutherans (of the Porvoo Union / LWF)
Assemblies of God
Calvary Chapel
Seventh Day Adventists

In addition, various groupings of Reformed and Methodist churches that are either in a state of full communion or parity would fit into the middle of that list, right alongside Anglicanism and the LWF.

Source:
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

BobRyan · Dec 19, 2016

Paul Yohannan said:
This figure is as one might well expect, inaccurate. The Lutheran churches of Northern Europe, which are in communion,

A. we don't "expect" Christianity Today be inaccurate.
B. you are using "bait and switch" between "is in communion" and "is a single denomination" - but Christianity Today was not.

so .. the point remains.

===============================

For example -- Oriental Orthodox

"Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) and Armenian Apostolic churches.[4] These six churches, while being in communion with each other are completely independent hierarchically and have no equivalent of the Bishop of Rome"

You use the term "in communion" - AS If that means "under the same administrative leadership" - with all tithes, policies, practices determine by a single authoritative body. A "bait and switch"

And of course "Christianity Today" knows that is not true for all Lutherans in N.E. where the Lutheran religion is part of the state government so even citizens that are atheist or Buddhist would be paying taxes that go to the Lutheran church of that country and for example the king of that country (in Norway) would be required to be Lutheran

Lutherans in Europe: "Church attendance on Sundays is no longer the norm. Often, people attend religious services only for baptisms, confirmations, weddings, funerals, and possibly at Christmas and Easter. Traditionally, the Lutheran youth would receive preparatory confirmation classes for 1 to 2 years around age 14, to introduce them to Christian doctrines. A large confirmation service is held once the series is completed. In some areas confirmation is now delayed until the end of the high school."
from - Lutheranism by region - Wikipedia

The single denomination status would not hold true for the oriental Orthodox nor for Calvary Chapel.

The name of the Lutheran church in Norway -- "Evangelical-Lutheran Church". A constitutional amendment of May 21, 2012 designates the church as "Norway's people's church" (Norges Folkekirke),

Calvary Chapel: -- NOT a denomination by their own confession.

Calvary Chapel is an evangelical [1][page needed] association of Christian churches. Calvary Chapel also maintains a number of radio stations around the world and operates many local Calvary Chapel Bible College programs. It presents itself as a "fellowship of churches" in contrast to a denomination [2][3] with over one thousand congregations worldwide.[4] Churches that affiliate with Calvary Chapel may use the name "Calvary Chapel" but need not do so.
from - Calvary Chapel - Wikipedia

and the Assemblies of God, among other denominations, are larger.

The Christianity Today article included that fact. You are responding without reading the article apparently.

Thus, the actual ranking in terms of denominational size:

Roman Catholics
Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
The Anglican Communion
Lutherans (of the Porvoo Union / LWF)
Assemblies of God
Calvary Chapel
Seventh Day Adventists

In addition, various groupings of Reformed and Methodist churches that are either in a state of full communion or parity would fit into the middle of that list

Again the bait and switch between "Denomination" and "in Communion" and "same group/denomination". Were we simply not supposed to notice?

"full communion is a relationship between church organizations, groups, and individuals that mutually recognize their sharing the essential doctrines"

"The Catholic Church sees itself as in partial, not full, communion with other Christian groups. "With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist" Catechism of the Catholic Church.[6]

your claims don't survive the "details".

in Christ,

Bob

ViaCrucis · Dec 20, 2016

BobRyan said:
in communion" and "is a single denomination"

The difference between the two is rather fuzzy at best. When talking about Lutheran denomninations they tend to be restricted to a particular country. For example the ELCA and the ELCIC, or the Church of Sweden, the Evangelical Church of Finland, etc. On some level it starts to look a lot more like how Anglicanism operates, geographically diverse churches working in communion functioning as a single body. In the case of Lutheranism, things get far more complicated because there can be competing Lutheran bodies in the same country: ELCA, LCMS, WELS, NALC, etc.

Sometimes denominational lines are fairly clear, other times it gets immensely fuzzy to almost non-existent.

-CryptoLutheran

Paul Yohannan · Dec 20, 2016

BobRyan said:
A. we don't "expect" Christianity Today be inaccurate.
B. you are using "bait and switch" between "is in communion" and "is a single denomination" - but Christianity Today was not.

so .. the point remains.

===============================

For example -- Oriental Orthodox

"Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) and Armenian Apostolic churches.[4] These six churches, while being in communion with each other are completely independent hierarchically and have no equivalent of the Bishop of Rome"

You use the term "in communion" - AS If that means "under the same administrative leadership" - with all tithes, policies, practices determine by a single authoritative body. A "bait and switch"

And of course "Christianity Today" knows that is not true for all Lutherans in N.E. where the Lutheran religion is part of the state government so even citizens that are atheist or Buddhist would be paying taxes that go to the Lutheran church of that country and for example the king of that country (in Norway) would be required to be Lutheran

Lutherans in Europe: "Church attendance on Sundays is no longer the norm. Often, people attend religious services only for baptisms, confirmations, weddings, funerals, and possibly at Christmas and Easter. Traditionally, the Lutheran youth would receive preparatory confirmation classes for 1 to 2 years around age 14, to introduce them to Christian doctrines. A large confirmation service is held once the series is completed. In some areas confirmation is now delayed until the end of the high school."
from - Lutheranism by region - Wikipedia

The single denomination status would not hold true for the oriental Orthodox nor for Calvary Chapel.

The name of the Lutheran church in Norway -- "Evangelical-Lutheran Church". A constitutional amendment of May 21, 2012 designates the church as "Norway's people's church" (Norges Folkekirke),

Calvary Chapel: -- NOT a denomination by their own confession.

Calvary Chapel is an evangelical [1][page needed] association of Christian churches. Calvary Chapel also maintains a number of radio stations around the world and operates many local Calvary Chapel Bible College programs. It presents itself as a "fellowship of churches" in contrast to a denomination [2][3] with over one thousand congregations worldwide.[4] Churches that affiliate with Calvary Chapel may use the name "Calvary Chapel" but need not do so.
from - Calvary Chapel - Wikipedia

The Christianity Today article included that fact. You are responding without reading the article apparently.

Again the bait and switch between "Denomination" and "in Communion" and "same group/denomination". Were we simply not supposed to notice?

"full communion is a relationship between church organizations, groups, and individuals that mutually recognize their sharing the essential doctrines"

"The Catholic Church sees itself as in partial, not full, communion with other Christian groups. "With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist" Catechism of the Catholic Church.[6]

your claims don't survive the "details".

in Christ,

Bob

Alright, if you're going to go there, I'm going to go here:

Roman Catholics
Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate)
Assemblies of God
Ethiopian Orthodox
Evangelical Church in Germany
Romanian Orthodox
Church of England
Ukrainian Orthodox (Kiev Patriarchate)
Seventh Day Adventist

So instead of being no. 8 on my previous list, Adventism is now no. 9, moving down one position! No. 10 if furthermore we classify the Calvary Chapel as structurally equivalent to the above despite their claims to be not a denomination (which is of course mere branding).

It would be better to just accept my communion-based definition, which comes closer to no. 5 if not by much...

Paul Yohannan · Dec 20, 2016

BobRyan said:
A. we don't "expect" Christianity Today be inaccurate.
B. you are using "bait and switch" between "is in communion" and "is a single denomination" - but Christianity Today was not.

so .. the point remains.

===============================

For example -- Oriental Orthodox

"Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) and Armenian Apostolic churches.[4] These six churches, while being in communion with each other are completely independent hierarchically and have no equivalent of the Bishop of Rome"

You use the term "in communion" - AS If that means "under the same administrative leadership" - with all tithes, policies, practices determine by a single authoritative body. A "bait and switch"

And of course "Christianity Today" knows that is not true for all Lutherans in N.E. where the Lutheran religion is part of the state government so even citizens that are atheist or Buddhist would be paying taxes that go to the Lutheran church of that country and for example the king of that country (in Norway) would be required to be Lutheran

Lutherans in Europe: "Church attendance on Sundays is no longer the norm. Often, people attend religious services only for baptisms, confirmations, weddings, funerals, and possibly at Christmas and Easter. Traditionally, the Lutheran youth would receive preparatory confirmation classes for 1 to 2 years around age 14, to introduce them to Christian doctrines. A large confirmation service is held once the series is completed. In some areas confirmation is now delayed until the end of the high school."
from - Lutheranism by region - Wikipedia

The single denomination status would not hold true for the oriental Orthodox nor for Calvary Chapel.

The name of the Lutheran church in Norway -- "Evangelical-Lutheran Church". A constitutional amendment of May 21, 2012 designates the church as "Norway's people's church" (Norges Folkekirke),

Calvary Chapel: -- NOT a denomination by their own confession.

Calvary Chapel is an evangelical [1][page needed] association of Christian churches. Calvary Chapel also maintains a number of radio stations around the world and operates many local Calvary Chapel Bible College programs. It presents itself as a "fellowship of churches" in contrast to a denomination [2][3] with over one thousand congregations worldwide.[4] Churches that affiliate with Calvary Chapel may use the name "Calvary Chapel" but need not do so.
from - Calvary Chapel - Wikipedia

The Christianity Today article included that fact. You are responding without reading the article apparently.

Again the bait and switch between "Denomination" and "in Communion" and "same group/denomination". Were we simply not supposed to notice?

"full communion is a relationship between church organizations, groups, and individuals that mutually recognize their sharing the essential doctrines"

"The Catholic Church sees itself as in partial, not full, communion with other Christian groups. "With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist" Catechism of the Catholic Church.[6]

your claims don't survive the "details".

in Christ,

Bob

By the way, your definition of denomination vs. communion would exclude all denominations that embrace a congregationalist polity even where unlike the Calvary Chapel they identify as denominations (for instance, the United Church of Christ).

Paul Yohannan · Dec 20, 2016

By the way, the article you refer to @BobRyan goes on the basis of communion, like my post:

Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

They just do it incompetently. Because there is no sense in which the Eastern Orthodox are an integral communion or denomination and the Oriental Orthodox are not, considering we share a common polity of autocephalous bishops. There is for that matter no sense in which the Anglican Communion is an integral communion or denomination and the churches of the Lutheran World Federation are not. Et cetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

The mind-blowing thing is that they forgot about the Oriental Orthodox, and/or incorrectly assumed we are the same as the Eastern Orthodox. Alas we are not, we are not in full communion, I wish we were, as do many of my coreligionists, but we are not, so , but this does outright torpedo the article in question.

In general I regard popular news magazines as unreliable source material when seeking a scholarly discussion.

At any rate, Adventism is not the fifth largest denomination or communion.

Monk Brendan · Dec 20, 2016

BobRyan said:
Well it is unlikely that either of those claims is true - given that you have mentioned her here as we see in the quote above. As I am sure we both agree.

That was the FIRST time I had mentioned her. Mary B, Eddy was just the first person that popped in my head when I was thinking about women that started their own religion after having fallen into a coma/screaming fit (Vladimir's Axiom), and having a demon walk in.

Paul Yohannan · Dec 20, 2016

I am requesting this thread be locked, to avoid improper speculation about historical figures of Adventism or other denominations.

I am going to post another thread to continue the denominational size-related discussion.

Paul Yohannan · Dec 20, 2016

So we can continue this discussion on-topic: On the size of denominations and communions

@BobRyan @ViaCrucis

BobRyan · Dec 20, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
That was the FIRST time I had mentioned her. Mary B, Eddy was just the first person that popped in my head when I was thinking about women that started their own religion after having fallen into a coma/screaming fit (Vladimir's Axiom), and having a demon walk in.

Not defending MBE -- just saying that "crazed woman" is not the sort of ad hominem I am going to be using to describe someone in the Catholic church or any other church.

Paul Yohannan · Dec 20, 2016

BobRyan said:
Not defending MBE -- just saying that "crazed woman" is not the sort of ad hominem I am going to be using to describe someone in the Catholic church or any other church.

And this is of course quite correct.

Hammster · Dec 20, 2016

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