advanced questions (IMO)

[squee779]

hello, i dont post too much but i have questions that i have asked my very spiritual friends and my religion teachers at my school and still have not gotten satisfactory answers to, just stock answers that dont seem to truely apply to my questions.

first and fore most. fate makes complete sense to me, but if fate is 100% true then their really isnt any choice and some people are desdined to go to hell, now if this is true then thats not fair and just, and God is a just God. now fate makes sense to me because people make choices based on their personalities and they're past experences, now your personality is partly genetics and partly because of past experences. now people dont controll their gentics, and they dont control what happens to them in life, so they dont determine they're personality. and if they dont determine they're personality, they're personality is what is used to make choices. so if they have no control over they're personality, they really dont have controll over they're choices...
example 1: a man is born with the genes of a very honest straight forward person into a very christian home and has a very good life, and because of these factors, he has a personality that allows him to make the "correct" choices in life. and he goes to heaven
example 2: now lets say that same man is born with the genetics of a very pessimistic cynical person into the home of hard core atheists and leads a very rough life and the only thing he knows about christianity is that alot of wars were fought about it and alot of "christians" make fun of him and such.
and based of these factors his personality and choices cause him to make "wrong" choices and go to hell.
was it really that persons responsibility he went to heaven or hell? or was it fate because of the life he was set up to live?

second... why are we saved by "grace" if we are just given a choice to follow god? i understand that he was saving us from sin and that is of grace but everyone who isnt adam and eve (and i believe thats most people =p) wasnt responsible for being born sinful and needing this "grace" so why is it "grace" if it is simply him giving us a choice?

third... why is homosexuality wrong? please just dont give me the verse saying thou shalt not lay with a man as with a woman for this is an abomination (its different in different versions but i believe thats the jist of the king james version). i want to know WHY it is wrong. i understand that it breeds desease i believe that is BECAUSE its wrong not WHY its wrong. i understand that procreation cannot accure this way, but their are many married couples with no intent on having children yet this is fine. and i understand that this is not what god intended when creating marrage and sex, but god also didnt have the intent of anal sex or oral sex in mind when creating man, yet that seems to be acceptible in the eyes of most. also they're are many things that dont seem to go with gods original intent yet he doesnt seem to look down upon it. such as electricity wasnt INETENDED to be used to power all of our things, it wasnt his original intent for it but its still not WRONG. so why is this wrong when its not his original intent? and yes i understand its different but still...

thank you for your time, also i will probably be checking back and i will be asking more questions based on your answer if your original answer doesnt answer my question, so please, no simple stalk answers like the ones i tryed to prevent above, unless you think it truely is fitting.

 

[PRMan]

These are good questions. Let me see if I can take a shot:

1. Your first question is the timeless Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. If we want to simplify the matter, Calvinism says God made all the choices according to who will be saved and who will not and Arminianism says our free will cooperates with Christ's provision. This link will spell out the arguments simply, but in detail:

http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm

Now, personally, I find more scriptural evidence for Arminianism. The Bible says we can fall away, implies that salvation is for whosoever will, etc. These scriptures cannot be handled (in my mind) by strict Calvinism.

But to answer your question, "fate" is strict Calvinism. I believe that (especially if #2 is in America) that he will eventually hear about Jesus. If he is so close-minded that he makes up his mind about Jesus by reading one line in a history book and never looks into what makes all the Christians around him loving and different, then is that really excusable?

2. Let's say for the sake of argument that we don't believe in original sin (that we are sinful because of Adam and Eve's choice). Are you trying to tell me that you are without sin? Or that a human being can go through life without sinning? Romans 3:23 says "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

3. I find that it leads to militant homosexuality and abuse (ie gang rape). This certainly seems to be the outcome when it runs rampant in scripture. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that homosexual rape happens more than we know but goes unreported. This in addition to spreading disease as you mentioned.

But it's interesting that you draw a distinction between WHY and BECAUSE. For God, who knows the future, the WHY is because of the BECAUSE. I see this often. People say, "What's wrong with sleeping around? Big deal. There's no harm in it." But when I hear the statistic that over 80% of the people in prison grew up without a father figure I say that promiscuity leads to violence. But most people can't get there in their thinking. God sees the big picture even when we can't. That's why it's important to trust that he knows better than us. He certainly has in my life.

So, in my mind, it appears that you have trouble with the doctrines of Calvinism (#1) and Original Sin (#2), but perhaps not with Christianity as a whole. But the levels to which these doctrines are true have been debated for centuries, so you are unlikely to find satisfying answers to them, since most Christians have not.

 

[Suzannah]

Hi. I think you are a very intelligent person. I'm going to leave 1 and 2 for you to wrestle with, only because you have to come to a conclusion about this only after much prayer and seeking God.

But here's my opinion of 3:
Keep in mind that I don't "hate" homosexuals. I am not a homophobe. My brother is gay and I enjoy a fantastic relationship with him. He's my favorite person. I am not going to go into all the Old Testament stuff. Yes, at the time, prohibitions prevented disease, yadda, yadda, yadda. It was also so that Israel, as a nation would be set apart as different from other cultures around it that allowed it. Here's the bottom line in my book: The reason homosexuality is wrong is: like an addiction, it is in essence a form of selfishness. This does not mean that homosexuals cannot have truly loving relationships. In fact, they often do so more admirably than heterosexuals. But homosexuality, begins in the self, revolves around the self, and ends in the self. It is about self identification with homosexuality as one's "orientation" and then one's entire life begins to revolve around it. In short, the purpose of life is not to please oneself, but to live for others.

 

[Lyle]

was it really that persons responsibility he went to heaven or hell? or was it fate because of the life he was set up to live?

It's not by the deed of the law/doing good works that gets one into heaven. A man may speak with the voise and tongue of an angel.. But if he is not covered by the blood of Christ, then he will be guilty.

God demands perfection.. One small sin is enough to disqualify one from heaven.. As the Bible is my witness...

but nevertheless, it is still the man's fault.. For in the book of Romans, Paul tells us that god has revealed Himself to ALL men...

..

All men are born sinners. And by one man sin ntered the world... Through Adam and ve's sin, all men are born into sin.. Just like in acient Greece, if you were born a Greek you owuld fight in the Greecian army.. Unless you defected....
Because men are born sinners, they need grace to cover and forgive these sins.. Even of the smallest.

why is homosexuality wrong?

You honestly want ot know? Because God said so... It goes against God's plan for marriage.. As Jesus said, "God created them male and female." All throughout the Bible God brings them male and female... Calling this practice of homosexuality sin, and disgust... Look it up in the Original Hebrew, it still states it's sin.. Not just the KJV....

 

[Lyle]

If I have not covered your questions as you wish, I will again go into greater detail with them...

 

[razzelflabben]

hello, i dont post too much but i have questions that i have asked my very spiritual friends and my religion teachers at my school and still have not gotten satisfactory answers to, just stock answers that dont seem to truely apply to my questions.

first and fore most. fate makes complete sense to me, but if fate is 100% true then their really isnt any choice and some people are desdined to go to hell, now if this is true then thats not fair and just, and God is a just God. now fate makes sense to me because people make choices based on their personalities and they're past experences, now your personality is partly genetics and partly because of past experences. now people dont controll their gentics, and they dont control what happens to them in life, so they dont determine they're personality. and if they dont determine they're personality, they're personality is what is used to make choices. so if they have no control over they're personality, they really dont have controll over they're choices...
example 1: a man is born with the genes of a very honest straight forward person into a very christian home and has a very good life, and because of these factors, he has a personality that allows him to make the "correct" choices in life. and he goes to heaven
example 2: now lets say that same man is born with the genetics of a very pessimistic cynical person into the home of hard core atheists and leads a very rough life and the only thing he knows about christianity is that alot of wars were fought about it and alot of "christians" make fun of him and such.
and based of these factors his personality and choices cause him to make "wrong" choices and go to hell.
was it really that persons responsibility he went to heaven or hell? or was it fate because of the life he was set up to live?

I won't say that it is never possible for a person to not hear the truth but I honestly believe that most people have a moment in thier lives with they face the truth and make a choice. For a true believer, the choice is always hard because it requires one to totally turn from the direction you life is going. (Church calls this to repent, like a U turn in life.) Even if you are a good person, you must turn away from self. This is only possible through the power of the Holy Spirit, which always trumps self. So to give you a short answer to your first question. There is always a point in ones life when they are at a crossroads and make a decision, this means, that no matter fate, or predisposition, you do have a choice. And, no matter fate or predisposition, it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you that you can continue on the path to God and that Spirit always trumps fate or predisposition.

second... why are we saved by "grace" if we are just given a choice to follow god? i understand that he was saving us from sin and that is of grace but everyone who isnt adam and eve (and i believe thats most people =p) wasnt responsible for being born sinful and needing this "grace" so why is it "grace" if it is simply him giving us a choice?

As mentioned above, we all sin. It is the very nature of mankind. Some might see it as God made a mistake. Problem with this line of thinking is that in a round about way, our sin can and does bring us closer to God and a trust in Him. Grace is our ticket to God, it costs us nothing but a relationship with that God.

third... why is homosexuality wrong? please just dont give me the verse saying thou shalt not lay with a man as with a woman for this is an abomination (its different in different versions but i believe thats the jist of the king james version). i want to know WHY it is wrong. i understand that it breeds desease i believe that is BECAUSE its wrong not WHY its wrong. i understand that procreation cannot accure this way, but their are many married couples with no intent on having children yet this is fine. and i understand that this is not what god intended when creating marrage and sex, but god also didnt have the intent of anal sex or oral sex in mind when creating man, yet that seems to be acceptible in the eyes of most. also they're are many things that dont seem to go with gods original intent yet he doesnt seem to look down upon it. such as electricity wasnt INETENDED to be used to power all of our things, it wasnt his original intent for it but its still not WRONG. so why is this wrong when its not his original intent? and yes i understand its different but still...

Lots of people confuse what man thinks are major sins with what God says are. In God's eyes, sin is sin and all sin is punishable by death. The problem with homosexuality is that man has said that it is a worse sin. That being said, why is it wrong. (So far I haven't quoted a lot of scripture because I got the idea from you post you got a lot of scripture and it didn't help. If you want the scripture referrences, let me know and give me a little time to get them, my schedule is very full) You already know about God creating man and woman, so we shall move on, in an earlier post, we found out that the sexual immorality sins are inward sins, sins against self. Self hatred as it were. It is also a problem because if is lack of self control. Many times over, man is asked to excersive self control, one of the most famous is taming the tongue. the sin of sexual imorality is also an issue of self control. In addition to this, from a historical standpoint, God would like us to not only remain pure but avoid the appearance of evil. Homosexuality, throughout history and sometimes today was used as a means of dominance over another person. Even in the animal world, homosexual behavior is predominately a show of dominance.

thank you for your time, also i will probably be checking back and i will be asking more questions based on your answer if your original answer doesnt answer my question, so please, no simple stalk answers like the ones i tryed to prevent above, unless you think it truely is fitting.

I really enjoy your questioning and seeking answers, your someone after my own heart. Pat answers almost always leave one with less than they need when they are searching for truth. I hope I have helped some and just wanted to thank you for your questions, they are great mind stretching. truth seeking thoughts.

 

[Reformationist]

first and fore most. fate makes complete sense to me

How do you define "fate?"

but if fate is 100% true then their really isnt any choice

Be assured that we, who are created in the image of God, make choices. However, those choices are ALWAYS secondary causes and, thus, subordinate to the eternal plan of God.

and some people are desdined to go to hell

The Bible clearly testifies that some people ARE predestined to go to hell as objects of the righteous and just wrath of God.

now if this is true then thats not fair and just, and God is a just God.

Why do you feel that it isn't "fair and just?" The Bible addresses this very question:

Romans 9:18,19:
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

The Apostle Paul's response is clear:

Romans 9:20,21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Paul is clearly saying that it's God's divine perrogative, as the Creator and Sustainer of all life, to create some as vessels of His mercy and some as vessels of His wrath. He also clearly says it is not our place to question the holiness of God because He does so. The first thing to acknowledge is that God was under no obligation to create anyone at all. The fact that He did is a sign of His grace. We, as unrighteous creations, have no right to question the holiness of God because He didn't create them all with the same purpose in mind. We are the work of His hands, created for the primary purpose of bringing Him glory. You see, the Gospel is not a testament to our glory but rather God's. The quest for glory is always God's primary goal in EVERYTHING He does. All people, regardless of their eternal disposition, bring glory to God. Some do so as the worthy vessels of His righteous and just wrath, others as the unworthy recipients of His grace and mercy.

now fate makes sense to me because people make choices based on their personalities and they're past experences, now your personality is partly genetics and partly because of past experences. now people dont controll their gentics, and they dont control what happens to them in life, so they dont determine they're personality. and if they dont determine they're personality, they're personality is what is used to make choices. so if they have no control over they're personality, they really dont have controll over they're choices...

In substance this is true. However, the biblically accurate definition of "free will" is actually "self determination." While we are not autonomous creations we can rightfully acknowledge that God allows us to make choices. These choices have real effects in our lives. Of paramount importance, however, and is delightfully something you have already seemed to grasp, is that these decisions are in keeping with our nature. We make choices that are not forced by God but are still not free from external influence. There are many things that influence our choices. The point of biblical and salvitic importance is that our heart (seat of reason) is radically corrupted and, thus, the choices that stem forth from this heart are corrupted as well. My old associate pastor describes it this way:

Think of a swimming pool. That swimming pool is your seat of reason, i.e., your thoughts, your inclinations, your desires, your will, etc. In that pool are fish. Those fish represent the choices that are available to you, as a finite creation.

If I may digress for a second it is important to distinguish between pre-Fall man, Adam and Eve, and post Fall man, the rest of us.

So, prior to the Fall there were two types of fish in our pool (seat of reason), red and blue. The red fish represent all of the ungodly choices available to you. The blue fish represent all of the godly choices available to you.

The church father, Augustine, identifies these four states of man as they relate to these two choices as:

• posse peccare (able to sin),
  posse non peccare (able not to sin),
  non posse non peccare (not able not to sin), and
  non posse peccare (unable to sin)

So, in our pre-Fall state we possessed both posse peccare (ability to sin) and posse non peccare (ability not to sin). With regard to the analogy we had both red and blue fish. When man transgressed against God and fell from His grace and was cast from God's holy Garden his nature was corrupted and became limited in his choices to posse peccare (able to sin) and non posse non peccare (not able not to sin). With regard to the analogy this means that man can still make choices, however, he can only choose the red fish (ungodly choices) because all desire to obey God (blue fish) is no longer part of his nature.

So, as you can see, we still freely make choices but those choices are neither autonomous to the sovereign rule of God nor are they completely free of influence.

example 1: a man is born with the genes of a very honest straight forward person into a very christian home and has a very good life, and because of these factors, he has a personality that allows him to make the "correct" choices in life. and he goes to heaven

We do NOT, I repeat NOT, go to Heaven because we "make the correct choices." If a person goes to Heaven it is because Christ made the correct choices, fulfilled the covenant of works that God established with Adam, that Adam broke, and because the Lord graciously imputes the merit for Christ's vicarious obedience to our account before God.

example 2: now lets say that same man is born with the genetics of a very pessimistic cynical person into the home of hard core atheists and leads a very rough life and the only thing he knows about christianity is that alot of wars were fought about it and alot of "christians" make fun of him and such.
and based of these factors his personality and choices cause him to make "wrong" choices and go to hell.

A person who goes to hell cannot either claim ignorance of God's sovereign dominion over creation nor can they blame the choices they make on something foreign to their own fallen, sinful heart:

James 1:14,15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

was it really that persons responsibility he went to heaven or hell?

The seemingly paradoxical relationship between divine sovereignty and human responsibility is one that plagues many people. As I said before, God was not under any obligation to create us, nor is He under any obligation to restrain us from treason against His holy Law. We sin and we sin because we want to sin. After the Fall we are willing slaves to our carnality (sinful nature). Unregenerate man flees from God in rebellion because he never desires a relationship with his Creator. God does not hold away someone who is seeking His love. The truth of fallen man is that NO ONE, in their unregenerate state, seeks God or desires to obey Him because of their love for Him because unregenerate man DOES NOT love Him, nor can he. The Bible clearly tells us that the carnal (fleshly, unregenerate) man cannot submit to the Law of God because the things of God are foolishness to the him (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7).

or was it fate because of the life he was set up to live?

This question usually stems from an erroneous notion that since God created all of humanity then He is obliged to treat them all the same. No where does this Bible relay such an imposition upon the Almighty. Those who are subjected to the wrath of God are worthy recipients of His judgment. No one can claim that "the devil made me do it." No one can claim ignorance. All of these excuses for treason against our Holy God will be made moot in the face of His majesty. The point is that the reprobate (those predestined by God to eternal damnation) willingly rebel against God's Law and, in doing so, proclaim themselves enemies of the Most High.

second... why are we saved by "grace" if we are just given a choice to follow god?

The grace of our salvation is not the product of making the right choice to follow God. Making the right choice is the product of the grace (unmerited favor) of God in regenerating our heart and mind (transforming our will) by removing our heart of stone (a will wholly disinclined to submit to God) and replacing it with a heart of flesh (a will that desires to submit to God in love and reverence).

i understand that he was saving us from sin and that is of grace but everyone who isnt adam and eve (and i believe thats most people =p) wasnt responsible for being born sinful and needing this "grace" so why is it "grace" if it is simply him giving us a choice?

We were all "in Adam" so when Adam sinned and fell all sinned and fell (Rom. 5:12). The good new of the Gospel is that those whom God has given to the Lord Jesus are made alive through His Work, kept by His power, and He will lose NONE of them (John 6:39; 1 Peter 1:3-5).

third... why is homosexuality wrong? please just dont give me the verse saying thou shalt not lay with a man as with a woman for this is an abomination (its different in different versions but i believe thats the jist of the king james version). i want to know WHY it is wrong. i understand that it breeds desease i believe that is BECAUSE its wrong not WHY its wrong. i understand that procreation cannot accure this way, but their are many married couples with no intent on having children yet this is fine. and i understand that this is not what god intended when creating marrage and sex, but god also didnt have the intent of anal sex or oral sex in mind when creating man, yet that seems to be acceptible in the eyes of most.

Simply, it's wrong because it's contrary to God's purpose in establishing man and woman. Just because fallible, finite man deems something acceptable doesn't make it acceptable in the eyes of God. As for the various forms of intercourse between two people that God has united in the covenant of marriage, I am not aware of any limitations to vaginal intercourse. I could be wrong on that. As for the union of homosexuals, it is wrong for many reasons but most significantly because sex outside of marriage (a convenant relationship established by God) is fornication, and fornication is sinful. God does not acknowledge the marital union of man and man or woman and woman so, regardless of what man's government condones, their union is always seen as unholy and invalid. Therefore, their relationship is sinful because it includes aspects intended for the confines of a God endorsed marriage covenant.

also they're are many things that dont seem to go with gods original intent yet he doesnt seem to look down upon it. such as electricity wasnt INETENDED to be used to power all of our things, it wasnt his original intent for it but its still not WRONG.

How do you know that God's intent wasn't for us to progress technologically? The entire Bible is filled with the examples of godly people making use, within the limitations of their technological evolution, of their environment. In fact, in the Garden of Eden God gave Adam dominion over his environment. That seems pretty clear that God intends for us to make use of our environment and progress within the bounderies of His holy Law.

Hope to hear from you soon. If you need me to explain anything let me know. I have a tendency to be a bit verbose, especially on paper.

God bless

 

[de Unamuno]

There is another thread going on about the same subject... http://www.christianforums.com/t97874

 

[Reformationist]

There is another thread going on about the same subject... http://www.christianforums.com/t97874

Actually the OP addresses more than just the issue of homosexuality. However, it won't hurt for him to look to that thread for any info as well so it's good that you posted it.

God bless

 

[Rafael]

Referring to the original post and fate, I don't believe man understands the power of God enough to dispute the choice made by Adam in the garden that gave death to man, and then God's love in providing a redeemer even before Adam fell with the Lamb slain before the foundations. God sees all time, beginning to end, and promises to make all things work together for good to those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose. Well many are called, but few are chosen. How can God know who these are? Through His omniscience, which we do not have or understand. I think that if man bares responsibility, then he made that choice to not answer the call of God at some time in his life - even their own conscience knowing good from evil, innately. God knew the choice would be made before he was born and could have used that evil to make good, and develope character and love in those He (God) foresaw as those that would choose to respond to the Holy Spirit of the Father that draws men to the truth. Somehow God does it all and is perfect in justice and with longsuffering of evil, in order to save His Church of firstborn as a bride and family to have fellowship with in eternity.
To judge God as unfair puts God on the level of men, and men do not have or understand the power to even make the life that a blade of grass holds within. How can we imagine that He is unfair when we observe all that has been created and had started out as good, without death. Now that death has entered the world and creation through man, men blame God by their ignorance of Him and their lack of having any spirit to know Him. It just isn't right, but it is normal for the rebellion born into the nature of man and his discontent by that first fall.
Man makes plans and choices, but what good are they without life? God determines the steps of man.

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

 

[squee779]

ahh thank you all for your answers... i will try and reflect on all of this and answer your questions about my questions and see if i have any further questions based upon your answers... heh..