Adopted culture

[nicodemus]

That's not just confined to Greeks either, or even the Orthodox for that matter. My wife's mother was never good enough for her mother-in-law despite their both being Romanian and Orthodox (though, interestingly the father-in-law was Russian!) My mother is a German Lutheran. Neither my wife (Romanian Orthodox) nor my brother's fiancee (English Protestant) are, or will ever be, good enough for us as far as my mother is concerned. I doubt anyone else would have measured up in her eyes either. I think this phenomenon is common and speaks more of the attitudes of some mothers towards their sons than it does of the culture they were brought up in.

James

When I moved to Florida and was looking for a church, we decided to go to the parish closest to our house first, which just so happened to be a Romanian Church, but in the OCA.

I went the first time by myself because my wife was sick. I get there and the priest can barely speak English (though he is extremely kind). The Liturgy was in Romanian with only the Creed and the Our Father done in English.

Afterwards, I get swarmed by a group of middle aged Romanian ladies that could speak pretty good (but still really broken) English and they start explaining Orthdoxy to me. I interrupted to tell them that I was already Orthdox and that I just moved to the area and was looking for a parish.

They lit up like Christmas trees. One of them said, "You Orthodox already?! And American?!?! Time to take you meet young, pretty Romanian women."



After seeing the bevy of pretty women there, I was sad to inform them I was already married.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

When I moved to Florida and was looking for a church, we decided to go to the parish closest to our house first, which just so happened to be a Romanian Church, but in the OCA.

I went the first time by myself because my wife was sick. I get there and the priest can barely speak English (though he is extremely kind). The Liturgy was in Romanian with only the Creed and the Our Father done in English.

Afterwards, I get swarmed by a group of middle aged Romanian ladies that could speak pretty good (but still really broken) English and they start explaining Orthdoxy to me. I interrupted to tell them that I was already Orthdox and that I just moved to the area and was looking for a parish.

They lit up like Christmas trees. One of them said, "You Orthodox already?! And American?!?! Time to take you meet young, pretty Romanian women."



After seeing the bevy of pretty women there, I was sad to inform them I was already married.

When we moved up here (the only parish we could previously get to was Greek) we found that there was a Romanian parish about half an hour's drive away. We went there and it was wonderful (but I speak Romanian, otherwise I'd have had the same problem you did with the Liturgy). I met the parish secretary and was chatting to her, mentioned my conversion (she first assumed I was Anglican) and she reacted with 'Your Orthodox? How wonderful!" Now that I've heard your story, I'm glad my wife was there. Who knows what would have happened next otherwise?

They've been very welcoming and, while also very ethnic, they have never made me feel out of place as the 'foreigner', which I have felt in some churches. I love Romanian customs, the language and especially the food. Somehow a feast isn't a feast any more unless it includes sarmale! But, I'm glad to say, my love of all things Romanian is quite seperate from, and preceded, my Orthodoxy. I'm a little dubious of those converts who 'go native' immediately after Chrismation. Hopefully someone will shoot me if I'm ever tempted to go to a Liturgy in Bucovinan national costume!

James

 

[Maximus]

I'm just curious if any of my fellow American converts to Orthodoxy feel the same way I do in that I've found the Russian culture of my historically Russian parish as an adopted culture?

I don't.

I am an American of Northern European descent. My family has been here in America since the 1630s - when the Dutch part of my family got here - and before that, since my mom's mom said we have some American Indian ancestors, as well (although I can't confirm that).

Now that's no claim to fame - it makes me no better or worse than anyone else - but it is my heritage, and I'm not about to abandon it in order to call myself Ivan and pretend to be something I'm not.

That doesn't mean I do not respect Russian culture. I do.

My wife is Russian. Her mom is Ukrainian, and my wife has Lithuanian, Polish, and Jewish ancestors.

I respect that and the rest of the world's culture and history.

But I've got my own and don't plan to exchange it for another.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I say converts should adopt a culture completely foreign to their own and impose it upon cradle Orthodox! For example, if you're of English decent, perhaps you could go to a Greek Church dressed in a Japanese Kimono! This way, you'll totally confuse the parishoners there.

 

[prodromos]

For example, if you're of English decent, perhaps you could go to a Greek Church dressed in a Japanese Kimono! This way, you'll totally confuse the parishoners there.

It wouldn't work, afterall,
[Gus voice] the Japanese word "kimono" is derived from the Greek word for winter, "heimona", since whenever it gets cold, you put on a robe! [/Gus]

 

[Maximus]

It wouldn't work, afterall,
[Gus voice] the Japanese word "kimono" is derived from the Greek word for winter, "heimona", since whenever it gets cold, you put on a robe! [/Gus]

I have always suspected that the "Hairy Ainu" of Hokkaido and the Kuril Islands were the descendants of shipwrecked Greek sailors.

You have supplied more evidence that that is the case.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Hehe! I was waiting for someone to bring up that reference from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" !!

 

[Nektaria]

It wouldn't work, afterall,
[Gus voice] the Japanese word "kimono" is derived from the Greek word for winter, "heimona", since whenever it gets cold, you put on a robe! [/Gus]

That's because EVERY word in the English language has it's root in Greek!

 

[Nektaria]

That was just their excuse . For some Greek parents, no woman is good enough for their son, not even Greeks (I have met a number of women who have suffered this attitude from their mothers-inlaw. And they were lovely women too).

John

I was going to mention this point also. I also am a convert to Orthodoxy (from Athiesm) however I have been fully accepted into not one but three separate Greek parishes. I am considered a "good Greek girl", and am introduced to the "good Greek boys" (since there don't seem to be any "bad Greek boys").

I did experience a little hostility at first from the 'mean' old yia-yias (who even the Greek girls my age refer to as 'the evil Greek aunts') when I volunteered to help the women's group for various functions. But despite their open hostility I kept volunteering remembering I was doing it for the Church...and almost every one of those 'evil Greek aunts' called to invite me to Thanksgiving this year (to meet their "good Greek grandson's" of course!). The fact that I am blonde and look French (which I am) is of no importance to anyone now. They decided that I am Greek, so I am Greek....and I certainly am not going to take on any one of those women to tell them otherwise!

I think I was accepted where many are not because I didn't covert to get married and so I don't have a disappointed mother-in-law (saying negative gossipy things), but instead Godparents proud of my conversion (saying positive gossipy things).

However, even my own Godmother (who basically adopted me as her child) barely tolerates either of her daughters-in-law (one convert, one born greek). And I know that no matter how much she loves me now, if I were to have married one of her sons I would never have been good enough for him either....thats just how many of them are.

 

[OnTheWay]

That's because EVERY word in the English language has it's root in Greek!

That's not strictly true, my best example of a good old fashioned Anglo-Saxon word is one I'd like never to use again.

 

[OnTheWay]

I guess to clarify what I meant a little better I'll relate my personal story. My family is German, my grand parents moved to the US after the second world war and have since moved back to Germany (they live in Kiel). I've spent summers there since I was quite young, I speak German, and am what you'd call "kultur Deutsch" as opposed to many Americans that are ethnically German but don't speak a word of the language or relate to the culture at all.
Anyway, as some may be aware there is a bit of historical hostility between Germany and Russia. I very much grew up with the stereotype many Germans have of Russian people (and really Slavs in general) and it was certainly a belief reinforced by my family. Basically I believed Russian men were either:
1. Funny but dull drunkards
2. Violent criminals
And Russian women were either:
1.Urban hookers/gold diggers
2.Ultra-nun country peasents

Since I've been involved with Orthodoxy I've come to realize that these beliefs were very unfounded and very unChristian. Most Russian men are of average or better intelligence and hard working. The vast majority of Russian women are neither prostitutes, gold diggers, or peasents. In was a very big step in my maturing process to come to realize that while these human flaws exist everywhere, they are not reflective of the general population and furthermore it's not for me to judge anyone.
Needless to say I've felt guilty about ever having such feelings about people that have been anything but kind and welcoming to me. As I've gotten to know them better I've found their culture and history extremely interesting and beautiful. While I certainly never want to abandon my German hertiage I've found Slavic culture to be like a second home, an adopted culture.
I hope that will shed some light on the general thrust of my point.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

I come from a mixed background. However, I find myself having many Greek traditions appear in my life since my conversion. Although, I might rant about how some North American Greeks behave.

My house always has Greek coffee, baklava, delights, and many other foods that are Greek. And I would say that it is more related to my conversion than the fact that I am half Greek. Considering my Greek half has no interest in their ethnic background or faith.

I don't believe you have to become Greek or Russian to be Orthodox. Orthodoxy is for the world, and not one ethnicity. However, we must also keep in mind that Greeks, Russians, Serbians etc. have a culture that suits the faith better than any other. That being because much of their culture is based on the Church, and Orthodox life.


P.S. Don't use the mati thing to argue with me.

 

[Rilian]

Personally, I have two ways of looking at this being myself a convert.

Way I

I think if you convert, and you're seriously try to live an Orthodox lifestyle you become somewhat less "American" if that makes sense. What I mean is you adopt a lifestyle that is often at odds with how our culture works and expresses itself, both in its religious and secular manifestations. This is not really specifically about any one ethnicity, it's really about Orthodoxy itself. I can say many, many things have changed about how I look at the world now. Really my whole worldview is different. In that sense I think I am in the process of adopting another culture.

Way II

In terms of adopting another ethnic culture, I don't think personally it will happen, at least in the singular sense. I say that for a few reasons.

One is my parish is fairly Americanized and/or Pan Orthodox depending on your perspective. No single group dominates and the language of the liturgy is all English. Probably about half the parish is convert (including our priest and Khouria), the other half is a complete mix of second and third generation cradle Orthodox of all stripes (Arab, Serbian, Slav, Romanian, Greek and probably some others I’m not aware of). Our traditions represent a mix of all these influences. Even our choir director, who is a convert, seems to have somewhat eclectic tastes and he mixes in what I know are harmonic elements in to our chants. Our parish will never have the same environment that other Orthodox churches do because we don’t have the very direct old country associations or predominant group. So we’ll never have the bake sales, the cultural classes or anything like that.

My personal outlook is also really Pan Orthodox, there’s no single culture I feel I would adopt as mine. I love the Slavonic tones, but I’ve come to appreciate the Byzantine ones more for instance. I first experienced Orthodoxy in a Russian context, but I’ve come to appreciate all of the cultures that have nourished Orthodoxy. I would like to be able to speak and read both Greek and Russian, if not other languages as well. The only thing that might tip things one way a little is our kids’ godmother is Greek, as well as my wife’s sponsor. So little by little we’ve adopted some Greek customs. The other thing that might be different for us is that my wife is second generation of a non Orthodox nationality.

My own background is Anglo-Germanic, and there are many connections and affinities I will always have for the traditions of those cultures. My parents aren’t religious and I didn’t grow up going to church, so religiously I just feel Orthodox. Maybe because of that converting wasn’t as big of a change for me.

Most importantly, the beer produced in most traditionally Orthodox countries is really, really bad. That would always hold me back.

 

[OnTheWay]

Most importantly, the beer produced in most traditionally Orthodox countries is really, really bad. That would always hold me back.

I don't know, I used to feel that all Russian beer was terrible. But after having some experience with Russian beers I've developed a bit of a taste for them. It's very different than German or English beers, so I don't really think they can be compared. Kind of like trying to compare Jägermeister to Vodka, it just can't be fairly or realistically done.

 

[Oblio]

Most importantly, the beer produced in most traditionally Orthodox countries is really, really bad. That would always hold me back

Now that is the most pertinent bit of data in this thread.

As a consolation I will say that Georgian and Moldovan wines are quite nice.

 

[prodromos]

Most importantly, the beer produced in most traditionally Orthodox countries is really, really bad.

That's because they eat their bread, they don't drink it

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

Now that is the most pertinent bit of data in this thread.

As a consolation I will say that Georgian and Moldovan wines are quite nice.

Romania has a couple of fantastic beers. Admittedly, you have to trawl your way through thousands of horrendous ones (or ask a local) to find them, but they are there. They also make great wine and spirits. Orthodox countries do seem to have rather a love affair with the hard stuff don't they? I rarely drink spirits, but the odd glass of good stuff (so long as it isn't vodka or, worse, samahonca - made from sugar beat) can sometimes be nice.

James

 

[Kolya]

And whats wrong with a shot of iced Vodka?

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

And whats wrong with a shot of iced Vodka?

It's got no taste. The only reason, other than wanting to avoid upsetting my in-laws on their saints' days, for drinking vodka that I can see is to get drunk, which isn't exactly an aim of mine when I'm drinking. Samahonca, on the other hand, does taste of something, it's just vile. Why anyone would want to drink something that tastes vaguely like an alcoholic, unwashed turnip is beyond me.

James

 

[Prawnik]

Russian beer has improved a lot in recent years. Some Ukrainian beer is also drinkable.

But if hard liquor is what you want, I highly recommend a good Bulgarian rakia.

Thank you, please drive through.