Addressing Fallacy of Composition. . .

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Awhile ago, one of the atheists here brought this up, and I didn't give it the time it rightly deserved. Whoever you are, I apologize.

One of David Hume's objections to the causal argument for the existence of God revolves around the fallacy of composition. First, the definition:

(per wiki) The fallacy of composition is an informal fallacy that arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole.

A trivial example might be: "This tire is made of rubber, therefore the vehicle of which it is a part is also made of rubber." This is fallacious, because vehicles are made with a variety of parts, most of which are not made of rubber.

Another example: "Since every part of a certain machine is light in weight, the machine as a whole is light in weight."

Hume's argument is summarized as follows:

Simply because causality occurs within the universe, it does not logically follow there must be a grand cause for the existence of all of the separate causes in the whole universe. Moreover, Thomas Aquinas' assertion that "To take away the cause is to take away the effect" would not hold for an infinite regress of causes since there is no cause taken away.

A thumbnail sketch of my responses (nothing really set in stone) is as follows:

1.) An appeal to infinite regress is never a conclusive reason for explaining anything, because it doesn't actually answer anything. If it ever did, then regression itself would necessarily cease. All non-answers or inconclusive answers are themselves deductively irrational. It is both dishonest as well as a gross contradiction to call an inconclusive answer conclusive. It's also a violation of law of excluded middle, which doesn't allow for "indeterminate" as an answer equal to a determinate. An indeterminate conclusion doesn't equal a determinate conclusion. They are mutually contradictory.

2.) Infinite regress is not sound, because an infinite regress of causes would never reach the present day. Nor would it even reach the moment of the Big Bang.

3.) Hume's "meta" relies on a wholly non-empirical observation from an abstract supra-natural perspective located completely outside the universe in-order to critique causality within the universe. "The phrase "within the universe" is stated from an outsider's POV, or "God's eye view." If that is the case, then his own argument is self-refuting, due to the fact that he's criticizing his own meta-perspective. However, if Hume's meta is true, then cause can occur outside the universe.

Note: Laws of logic are never "contained" nor dominated by a hierarchy of materialism, ontological naturalism, or "empiricism-as-dogma." But rather the reverse: All nature is entirely logic-dependent. Thus cause, like all laws of logic, necessarily exist outside the universe.

4.) If the other laws of logic apply to claims such as "universe," (i.e. law of identity) then Hume cannot special-plead law of causality as inapplicable to any extent. Moreover, he cannot apply fallacy of composition to defeat a law of logic itself. He's essentially trying to apply reason to defeat reason. <-- what the. . .???

5.) If the whole universe is made up of basic subatomic particles, i.e. "star stuff," then one only needs to account for the particles. Physics is reductionist. So Theists don't have to argue a cause for the existence of "all of the separate causes in the whole universe," but rather just the reductionist bits, or even the one singularity that led to the Big Bang.

Going back to Hume's billiards argument, if I strike the cue on the break, then I don't necessarily have to account for the effect of every single ball thereafter, as all these subsequent effects themselves become causal relationships with other balls, cushions, pockets, etc.

6.) Doubt is subjective; not objective. Doubt is an act of the subjective will. Doubt carries no dominant hierarchy in the universe. Even "reasonable doubt" must necessarily be subordinate to reason. Merely doubting the direct observation of cause is not equal to the cause itself (nor of equal authority).

7.) Fallacy of composition is an erroneous assumption, while cause itself is a deductive absolute instead. While cause can often be misattributed, a confirmed cause is not an assumption. Scientifically speaking, if Steady State theory has been falsified, and Big Bang is more likely a confirmed fact, then attributing fallacy of composition to it would itself be an unscientific claim.

That's what I have for now. Maybe more will follow. . .
 
Last edited:

Lion IRC

Newbie
Sep 10, 2012
509
198
✟19,082.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...an infinite regress of causes would never reach the present day.

Wouldn't they keep on repeating the 'present day'?
Identical repetition of an event called "day" might render the term 'present day' meaningless, but it could still be an infinite regression of Groundhog Days couldnt it?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Paulomycin
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,199
5,706
68
Pennsylvania
✟793,406.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
6.) Doubt is subjective; not objective. Doubt is an act of the subjective will. Doubt carries no dominant hierarchy in the universe. Even "reasonable doubt" must necessarily be subordinate to reason. Merely doubting the direct observation of cause is not equal to the cause itself (nor of equal authority).
Does this apply, then, to all the conclusions drawn on the fact some things are 'indeterminate' (I claim are merely 'believed to be indeterminate' bc of our ignorance). I have a problem (that I don't know how to defend) with the math of probability, particularly when they draw cosmic conclusions on unknowability.

I wish I could come up with an example --I ran into one just yesterday, I think, but I can't place it in my mind right now.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,610
15,763
Colorado
✟433,478.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Awhile ago, one of the atheists here brought this up, and I didn't give it the time it rightly deserved. Whoever you are, I apologize.
I have proposed this objection to "first cause" arguments over and over at CF. Having no background in philosophy I had no idea Hume proposed this too, tho I'm not surprised. The objection seems pretty obvious to me.

1.)...It is both dishonest as well as a gross contradiction to call an inconclusive answer conclusive. It's also a violation of law of excluded middle, which doesn't allow for "indeterminate" as an answer equal to a determinate. An indeterminate conclusion doesn't equal a determinate conclusion. They are mutually contradictory.
I dont even know what it would mean for an inconclusive answer to be "equal to" a determinate one. Its certainly not as satisfying, typically. But for sure an inconclusive answer can negate a conclusive one. This seems utterly non-controversial. All you do is show how youd have to know X to conclude Y, when its clear we dont know X.
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
I have proposed this objection to "first cause" arguments over and over at CF. Having no background in philosophy I had no idea Hume proposed this too, tho I'm not surprised. The objection seems pretty obvious to me.

Sure it "seems" that way subjectively, but how do you justify it objectively?

I dont even know what it would mean for an inconclusive answer to be "equal to" a determinate one. Its certainly not as satisfying, typically. But for sure an inconclusive answer can negate a conclusive one. This seems utterly non-controversial. All you do is show how youd have to know X to conclude Y, when its clear we dont know X.

Asserting that, "for sure an inconclusive answer can negate a conclusive one," is claiming that an inconclusive answer is real, and therefore conclusive. Hence, the contradiction.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,610
15,763
Colorado
✟433,478.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Sure it "seems" that way subjectively, but how do you justify it objectively?
How do I demonstrate objectively that we dont know the facts of some matter? Its easy. Ask around. Or do the reading. If all the scientists you read say we dont know X about some cosmological matter, then its pretty safe to say we dont know it.

Asserting that, "for sure an inconclusive answer can negate a conclusive one," is claiming that an inconclusive answer is real, and therefore conclusive. Hence, the contradiction.
We should not call it an "inconclusive answer". If I did that, my mistake. We should just call it a matter about which we are ignorant. And, of course, we cant draw conclusions on matters we're ignorant about.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,199
5,706
68
Pennsylvania
✟793,406.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Asserting that, "for sure an inconclusive answer can negate a conclusive one," is claiming that an inconclusive answer is real, and therefore conclusive. Hence, the contradiction.
Not to mention that it is moving the goalposts....
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
How do I demonstrate objectively that we dont know the facts of some matter? Its easy. Ask around. Or do the reading. If all the scientists you read say we dont know X about some cosmological matter, then its pretty safe to say we dont know it.

All you're doing is asserting that something only subjectively "seems" to be true without lifting a finger to demonstrate it as such. Hume's objection "seems" to be fine with you as long as you're actively ignoring all the objective objections to Hume's initial objection.

We should not call it an "inconclusive answer". If I did that, my mistake. We should just call it a matter about which we are ignorant. And, of course, we cant draw conclusions on matters we're ignorant about.

Great. I admire that answer. I hope to see you follow-through and do just that. If you can't draw conclusions on a matter you're ignorant about, then you must remain open-minded to new information. And I am presenting new information that has not been objectively refuted thus far. You can only argue that information objectively. Objective opinions are the only opinions that count. Personal subjectivism is not an objective argument to the contrary.
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Not to mention that it is moving the goalposts....

The fallacies are in-fact so precisely synchronized that it's very difficult to keep track of them all at once. Hanlon's razor should apply, but I can't assume they're stupid. Therefore, I am forced to assume malicious and intentional use of fallacious reasoning as-if it were a simultaneous artillery salvo, or a multiple rocket volley.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,610
15,763
Colorado
✟433,478.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
All you're doing is asserting that something only subjectively "seems" to be true without lifting a finger to demonstrate it as such. Hume's objection "seems" to be fine with you as long as you're actively ignoring all the objective objections to Hume's initial objection....
OK, lets see this knowledge about the state of reality beyond the universe. I've done quite a bit of investigating and I cant find it among people who devote their lives to it. There's speculations and possibilities. But nothing remotely like knowledge. Can you find it?

If I cant find this knowledge, and if you cant find it, then for the sake of our argument we have only found ignorance concerning the state of reality beyond the universe. And therefore, conclusions on the matter (the matter being: the state of reality beyond the universe) are not warranted.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
OK, lets see this knowledge about the state of reality beyond the universe.

If Hume is objectively criticized as such, then his brand of Empiricism itself falls apart and the Thomistic argument about the state of reality (a purely Theistic one) remains inviolate. I don't think you realize how this works.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,610
15,763
Colorado
✟433,478.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
If Hume is objectively criticized as such, then his brand of Empiricism itself falls apart and the Thomistic argument about the state of reality (a purely Theistic one) remains inviolate. I don't think you realize how this works.
Youre right. I dont.

(Surely its some fallacy or other to invoke other arguments by name rather than actually making them.)
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Youre right. I dont.

(Surely its some fallacy or other to invoke other arguments by name rather than actually making them.)

Okay, let's simplify it for you:

David Hume was the key influence of the entire Scottish Enlightenment. Without Hume, Locke's rudimentary Empiricism would exist, but not the era of Enlightenment itself.

No enlightenment philosophy = no atheism. Get it? Hume's Empiricism is a sine qua non of atheism, without which it would not exist.

If Hume is successfully deconstructed, then Thomism remains true. Therefore, God necessarily exists and has never been disproven otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,610
15,763
Colorado
✟433,478.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Okay, let's simplify it for you:

David Hume was the key influence of the entire Scottish Enlightenment. Without Hume, Locke's rudimentary Empiricism would exist, but not the era of Enlightenment itself.

No enlightenment philosophy = no atheism. Get it? Hume's Empiricism is a sine qua non of atheism, without which it would not exist.

If Hume is successfully deconstructed, then Thomism remains true. Therefore, God necessarily exists and has never been disproven otherwise.
I was hoping you could just address, in your own terms, the points I made in post #11.

If its not worth the bother, then dont bother.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
I was hoping you could just address, in your own terms, the points I made in post #11.

If its not worth the bother, then dont bother.

I can address, in my own terms, knowledge about the state of reality beyond the universe.

But it is essentially no different from Aquinas' position.

So we can take the circuitous route in my own words, or, we can simply admit that Hume's arguments are garbage and just admit that Aquinas' proof of God was never falsified to begin with.

That's my point.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,610
15,763
Colorado
✟433,478.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I can address, in my own terms, knowledge about the state of reality beyond the universe.

But it is essentially no different from Aquinas' position.

So we can take the circuitous route in my own words, or, we can simply admit that Hume's arguments are garbage and just admit that Aquinas' proof of God was never falsified to begin with.

That's my point.
OK. So is there a name for the Aquinas argument that most succinctly gets at this position?
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,610
15,763
Colorado
✟433,478.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Yes. It's his classic "second way" cosmological argument.
Ive definitely hashed that one out before and dont find it convincing.

Im not sure in what sense opinions about highly disputed arguments count as "knowledge". Seems they are second rate compared to empirical data.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Ive definitely hashed that one out before and dont find it convincing.

"I am not convinced" is a subjective claim, and not an objective argument to the contrary. If you can't actually defeat it, then it doesn't matter what your opinion is.

Im not sure in what sense opinions about highly disputed arguments count as "knowledge". Seems they are second rate compared to empirical data.

The argument itslef is bivalent deduction, therefore math, therefore real knowledge. And precise knowledge at that. Empirical data is always math-dependent. <--That's the actual hierarchy.
 
Upvote 0