Adam & Eve

[random person]

Were they mortal beings that suffered spiritual separation and spiritual death when they were cast out of the Garden?

Or were they immortal beings that suffered both physical and spiritual death when they were cast out of the Garden?

 

[random person]

I believe verses Genesis 2:17 & chapter 3, death refers to separation not annihilation.

And look at how the third chapter concludes, Adam and Eve do not experience annihilation but they suffer both separation (cast out of the garden, cast out of God's presence) and a spiritual death.

 

[TheBarrd]

I suspect that the Adam and Eve story is mostly allegory.

 

[Wryetui]

I believe Adam and Eve where real persons, the first beings created by God, they were like us are today and they led us to sin, they did the primordial sin.

 

[Timothew]

I believe verses Genesis 2:17 & chapter 3, death refers to separation not annihilation.

And look at how the third chapter concludes, Adam and Eve do not experience annihilation but they suffer both separation (cast out of the garden, cast out of God's presence) and a spiritual death.

Who said anything about annihilation?

I believe that Adam lived until he died when he was 930 years old, because the Bible says "Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died." Genesis 5:5 NIV

 

[random person]

Who said anything about annihilation?

I believe that Adam lived until he died when he was 930 years old, because the Bible says "Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died." Genesis 5:5 NIV

In annihilation, I meant, that very day he ate of the fruit he'd keel over and give up the ghost.

 

[2KnowHim]

Adam and Eve and the whole Garden scenario, is a picture of all of us. And is a reality today. We all have a serpent, male and female part Spiritually speaking, and are surrounded by all kinds of fruit trees (people) that we can eat of freely, there is The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, (law) and there is The Tree of Life (our Lord).

We are the Garden of God, trees of Righteousness the planting of The Lord.
Isa_61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

 

[Timothew]

In annihilation, I meant, that very day he ate of the fruit he'd keel over and give up the ghost.

Oh, I see. You thought that when God said "when you eat of the fruit you will surely die" meant that Adam would keel over that very same day. No, as we see from Genesis 5:5, Adam "keeled over" many years later, as a result of his eating the fruit (sinning) that day.

Where does God say "When you eat of the fruit you will be separated"? I don't see that. It does say that they will die, which they did. You said "death refers to separation not annihilation", Where does the Bible say that death refers to separation? And where did I ever say that death refers to annihilation? I didn't. I believe that "death" refers to "death", as in "not alive, the end of life". It is not a coincidence that this is exactly what happened to Adam. He died.

 

[random person]

Oh, I see. You thought that when God said "when you eat of the fruit you will surely die" meant that Adam would keel over that very same day. No, as we see from Genesis 5:5, Adam "keeled over" many years later, as a result of his eating the fruit (sinning) that day.

Where does God say "When you eat of the fruit you will be separated"? I don't see that. It does say that they will die, which they did. You said "death refers to separation not annihilation", Where does the Bible say that death refers to separation? And where did I ever say that death refers to annihilation? I didn't. I believe that "death" refers to "death", as in "not alive, the end of life". It is not a coincidence that this is exactly what happened to Adam. He died.

Then that puts God in the position of dishonesty, because Adam didn't die the DAY he ate of the fruit, and didn't taste death until a near millennia later.

So essentially you are saying, is God told Adam if you eat of the fruit you'll live to a long ripe age of nearly a 1,000 years later before dying, hmm, is that any punishment at all, or is the real punishment is losing God as a father and one's heavenly inheritance upon death?

What is the most realistic punishment? A life cut short around 5,000 years or eternal separation from God?

Ironically, the word "Adam" in the original Hebrew also means "human race", did you know that?

 

[Timothew]

Then that puts God in the position of dishonesty, because Adam didn't die the DAY he ate of the fruit, and didn't taste death until a near millennia later.

So essentially you are saying, is God told Adam if you eat of the fruit you'll live to a long ripe age of nearly a 1,000 years later before dying, hmm, is that any punishment at all, or is the real punishment is losing God as a father and one's heavenly inheritance upon death?

What is the most realistic punishment? A life cut short around 5,000 years or eternal separation from God?

Ironically, the word "Adam" in the original Hebrew also means "human race", did you know that?

No, God didn't lie when He told Adam that he would die. Did you know that the Hebrew "Muth ta Mut" means "dying, you will die"? So this is a very accurate prophecy of what actually DID happen. The day that Adam ate the fruit, he became mortal, Described by God as "Dying, you will die".

"Dying, you will die", can you think of better description of becoming mortal?

You ask me "What is the more realistic punishment (for sin)?
You don't need me to tell you, you can look it up for yourself in the Bible.
Romans 6:23 informs us, "The wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". It simply doesn't matter what you or I think is the most realistic punishment for sin, What matters is what God says is the punishment for sin, and that is death. But since you did ask me what I think is the more realistic punishment, I would have to say death over eternal torture. Why bother torturing someone for all eternity if you can just end their existence? Which would you do?

 

[random person]

No, God didn't lie when He told Adam that he would die. Did you know that the Hebrew "Muth ta Mut" means "dying, you will die"? So this is a very accurate prophecy of what actually DID happen. The day that Adam ate the fruit, he became mortal, Described by God as "Dying, you will die".

"Dying, you will die", can you think of better description of becoming mortal?

You ask me "What is the more realistic punishment (for sin)?
You don't need me to tell you, you can look it up for yourself in the Bible.
Romans 6:23 informs us, "The wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". It simply doesn't matter what you or I think is the most realistic punishment for sin, What matters is what God says is the punishment for sin, and that is death. But since you did ask me what I think is the more realistic punishment, I would have to say death over eternal torture. Why bother torturing someone for all eternity if you can just end their existence? Which would you do?

"Muth ta Mut" means "dying, you will die" it is first death & second death

 

[RainFallsOnEveryone]

when you are born you will surely die, does not imply that death comes the instant of birth yet it is unarguably true.

 

[Timothew]

"Muth ta Mut" means "dying, you will die" it is first death & second death

Okay, but it doesn't actually say that...

Rain brings up a good point, you and I will surely die, probably not today.
The day you eat a poisonous mushroom, you will surely die. But you may not die that very same day.

 

[2KnowHim]

But what is Death to God? To be Carnally minded IS Death. It is also The Enemy of God.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity (enemy) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

G2189
ἔχθρα
echthra
ekh'-thrah
Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition: - enmity, hatred.

G2190
ἐχθρός
echthros
ekh-thros'
From a primary word ἔχθω echthō (to hate); hateful (passively odious, or actively hostile); usually as a noun, an adversary (especially Satan): - enemy, foe.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Were they mortal beings that suffered spiritual separation and spiritual death when they were cast out of the Garden?

Or were they immortal beings that suffered both physical and spiritual death when they were cast out of the Garden?

I think there is another more accurate choice. Adam and Eve had the access to the tree of life that could allow one to live forever. Their bodies were capable of living forever with the correct food. Note that scripture lists no change in their bodies as punishment for sinning, only that access to the tree of life was prevented. They were separated from life. This happened on the day of their sin.

Gen 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

I would like to clarify that the word immortal does not convey God's plan from creation for Adam. It has the connotation that Adam and Eve would have lived forever in the Garden of Eden if they never sinned. I suggest that creation was never meant to last forever, in that the first command to reproduce and fill the earth is not an eternal command. Eventually it would be filled.

I propose that just as Enoch and Elijah went to heaven without dying that is what God would have done if man never sinned. Do you still call that immortal? I say only our soul is immortal, not our flesh.

 

[random person]

And the LORD God formed man of the dust (aphar # 6083) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh #5315). Genesis 2:7

Is immortality really unconditional? We generally hear that Adam was created immortal, not subject to death, and that because of Adam's sin, he died physically, as did his descendants.

But was Adam created immortal, not subject to physical death? It appears not. Let's briefly review the Bible's teaching concerning man being a living soul. The word soul in the Old Testament comes from the Hebrew nephesh, which fundamentally refers to man's animal life, i.e., the life he shares with all animals. Hence, in Genesis 2:7, we read:

And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.​

Here, Adam consisted of (1) a physical body, composed from the earth, which was not living. However, when God gave this body (2) the breath of life, Adam became a living soul (nephesh. It's interesting that the term nephesh is applied to animals many times in that same creation chapter. For example, Gen. 2:19 says: "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures (nephesh)." In Gen. 1:21, the same word is translated living creature: "And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moves wherewith the water swarmed." In Gen. 1:24, it's again translated animals: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth." In Gen. 1:30, it's translated life: "And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life." Hence, the term a living soul, is applied to animals as well as man. They are all living souls.

Not only were Adam and all the living creatures living souls before Adam sinned, but they were all subject to death before he sinned. After his creation outside the garden, God placed Adam in the garden and gave him access to the tree of life to sustain his life. This fact tells us that he wasn't immortal, but subject to death before he sinned. Some suggest that even the fact that Adam had to eat at all, much less of the tree of life, before he sinned, shows that he was mortal (as much so as all other living creatures) before he sinned. Would he not have starved to death had he not eaten? If not, why did God arrange for him to eat anything at all? Where he sinned, he lost access to the tree of life, "lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Gen. 3:22).

God forbade Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil saying in Gen. 2:16-17:

From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.​

Obviously, Adam didn't die physically the day he ate from the tree of knowledge, but hundreds of years later. However, he did die in the sense of being separated from God by his sin the day he ate, and he knew it. Suddenly, his relationship with God changed. He became fearful of approaching God, and attempted to hide from him. This broken relationship with God was Adam's sin-death.

Notice some conclusions thus far concerning whether Adam was immortal. First, Adam didn't die physically because of sin. The physical death of Adam and his descendants was not a punishment for Adam's sin, any more than the physical death of any other living creatures was punishment for Adam's sin. Like all others of Adam's descendants, you and I will die physically, but not because of Adam's sin. We die physically for the same reason Adam did. We're mortal, and we lack access to the tree of life.

Second, Jesus was resurrected from the dead to remedy the effect of Adam's sin (Rom. 5:12-21, 1 Cor. 15:22,45), which was not physical death. Adam wasn't immortal because he was subject to death both before and after he sinned. Nor are we immortal. Christ's resurrection provides the remedy of Adam's spiritual death - his separation from God.

- Samuel G Dawson