Adam & Eve: Original Entrapment

[JookieRed]

When god made Adam and Eve, they were as pure and innocent as children. They had no concept of right or wrong, good or evil. The only way they could gain this knowledge was to eat from the forbidden tree. Why did god put the tree there in the first place? Bait?

So along comes a serpent that talks Eve into eating the fruit. She gets Adam to eat it and BAM, mankind is cursed forever. Huh?

How were they to know that disobeying god was wrong? They couldn’t. How then was it fair for god to punish them for this “sin”? If this was supposed to be a test of obedience, I hardly think it was a fair test.

Please explain!

 

[tapero]

Why did god put the tree there in the first place? Bait?

How were they to know that disobeying god was wrong? They couldn’t. How then was it fair for god to punish them for this “sin”? If this was supposed to be a test of obedience, I hardly think it was a fair test.

Hi JookieRed, I don't know why God put the tree there, but He did.

As to your last paragraph God did warn Eve in the following verses: The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Eve was also warned as the dialogue with the serpant shows.

When tempted by the serpant she said: The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.

So you see that they were warned by God. Notice what Eve says is different than what God commanded.

I hope this was helpful, Sincerely, Tapero

 

[JookieRed]

I understand that god told them not to eat it. Then the serpent tells them that its ok. If they had no concept of right and wrong, how could they know that listening to the serpent instead of god was the wrong thing to do?

Also, god's threat of punishment was death. Did they really understand what that meant? Had they ever witnessed a death before?

 

[Serapha]

HI there!




Welcome to the forums...


And, hopefully to answer your question...

Also, god's threat of punishment was death. Did they really understand what that meant? Had they ever witnessed a death before?

God doesn't "threaten" which carries the possible connotation that their might not be a fulfullment of the statement.... God guarantees what He says. It wasn't a "threat" that they would die, it was a given guarantee, that if they were disobedient, they would die.

The discipline wasn't about death, but about obedience to God's command. The focus is always put on not knowing "death", when the focus should be put on knowing "obedience"


Adam's inner being, the soul, was in communion with the Lord. Certainly God had spoken with Adam in the "cool of the evening" when God came into the garden. If God had not spoken to Adam, we would not have the record of the spiritual warfare that resulted in the fallen angels. Adam must have known the consequences of disobedience to God would result in being "cast out" just as one-third of the angels were "cast down" for disobedience.


~serapha~

 

[JookieRed]

Adam's inner being, the soul, was in communion with the Lord. Certainly God had spoken with Adam in the "cool of the evening" when God came into the garden. If God had not spoken to Adam, we would not have the record of the spiritual warfare that resulted in the fallen angels. Adam must have known the consequences of disobedience to God would result in being "cast out" just as one-third of the angels were "cast down" for disobedience.

This sounds like assumption. Where does it say that Adam knew that disobedience was wrong? Before eating the fruit, I can't imagine that they even knew the meaning of obedience.

 

[CPman2004]

God gave Adam and Eve a choice. He didn't ever force their hands at anything. All he said was, "Do not eat the fruit of the tree." Now when Satan came along and told them that they wouldn't die, and would be like God, they were given another choice.

The basic question they had to answer was, "Should we have faith in God's word simply on his say-so, or should we evaluate God and His word on the basis of our own ultimate intellectual and moral athority?"

Adam and Eve choose the road of their own evaluation of the choice, but that choice was clearly aginst God's command , and thus sinned. God had good reasons for telling them not to eat from that tree, which is not totally reveled to us, but we have to trust that he does.

 

[Rafael]

Adam's inner being, the soul, was in communion with the Lord. Certainly God had spoken with Adam in the "cool of the evening" when God came into the garden. If God had not spoken to Adam, we would not have the record of the spiritual warfare that resulted in the fallen angels. Adam must have known the consequences of disobedience to God would result in being "cast out" just as one-third of the angels were "cast down" for disobedience.

This sounds like assumption. Where does it say that Adam knew that disobedience was wrong? Before eating the fruit, I can't imagine that they even knew the meaning of obedience.

There is Adam in the garden....Walking and talking with God. Adam also had enough sense to name all the animals while there, He was not born without knowledge as a babe, but was fully formed as a man. Also, if Adam could not understand a warnng to not do something, then God would not have botherd giving that warning...That is only logical.

 

[Rafael]

When god made Adam and Eve, they were as pure and innocent as children. They had no concept of right or wrong, good or evil. The only way they could gain this knowledge was to eat from the forbidden tree. Why did god put the tree there in the first place? Bait?

So along comes a serpent that talks Eve into eating the fruit. She gets Adam to eat it and BAM, mankind is cursed forever. Huh?

How were they to know that disobeying god was wrong? They couldn’t. How then was it fair for god to punish them for this “sin”? If this was supposed to be a test of obedience, I hardly think it was a fair test.

Please explain!

Original entrapment??? What is entraping about a choice? If you will read, they were not like babes in the innocence we understand, but were still man and woman in their perfect eternal bodies. We know little of that state of being in this dimension of time that is of that curse. We all suffer the weight of that sin Adam was responsible for, but no man alive has to suffer the full penalty of the fall of the first Adam. God has canceled that debt by giving His own life in the flesh for mankind. The fact that God gave a choice between good and evil is the significant factor, and then that He paid man's penalty in Himself, manifested in the flesh as the Sons of God, Jesus. It is through Him that we have life or death. We still make that choice, today.

Ro 5:17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

 

[charis theou]

God fully knew that they would eat of the tree, this is the entire reason it was placed there.


God created man in order to display His love and to be loved back. In order for there to be love man must have a choice. Unfortunately, in order to have a choice when perfection is the reign, evil must be allowed into the world. God, being completely good, could not create evil. Thus He had to allow for free will, the ability choose God (good) or the absense of God (evil).

When the Bible talks about how Adam and Even did not know what good and evil was, this is u sing the Hebrew paradigm of "know". Often times in the English language we understand it under the Greek meaning (ginosko) which simply means to have knowledge of something. The Hebrew paradigm, however, meant to know something in an intimate way, to have partaken in it. Therefore, when the Bible says that Adam and Eve did not "know" what Good and Evil were, this meant that they had not partaken in a choice of the two. They were created inherently good and thus had not choosen good. Likewise they had not sinned so they had not chosen to sin. They knew (in the Greek sense) what good and evil were, and what obeying was, but they simply had not participated in such a choice.

Ultimately though, GOd knew they would choose unwisely, leading man on a downward spiral and tainting perfection. This was merely so that God could demonstrate His love more purely by giving His own Son.

 

[JookieRed]

I was going to bring this up in a separate thread but I'll touch on it here.

Man has free will but god knows in advance what we are going to choose? Both can not be true. If I am standing at a crossroad with the choice of turning right or left, and god knows in advance that I will turn left, then I don't have a choice. I am following a pre-written script.

This absurd concept simply allows Christians to claim an all-powerful, all-knowing god while at the same time letting god off the hook for all the bad things in life and passing the blame on to man. I just wish you could hear how that sounds from my side.

 

[charis theou]

I was going to bring this up in a separate thread but I'll touch on it here.

Man has free will but god knows in advance what we are going to choose? Both can not be true. If I am standing at a crossroad with the choice of turning right or left, and god knows in advance that I will turn left, then I don't have a choice. I am following a pre-written script.

This absurd concept simply allows Christians to claim an all-powerful, all-knowing god while at the same time letting god off the hook for all the bad things in life and passing the blame on to man. I just wish you could hear how that sounds from my side.

This comes from a misunderstanding of God's foreknowledge. It places God under time when God created time. In other words, it is a straw man type arguement that attempts to limit God.

With God existing outside of time past, present, and future can all be occuring at the same time before Him. In other words we can be making choices that, in our realm, have not occured yet. This does not lead to a dual existance but merely to there being no time line with God. In other words, a diagram would make it look as such:

God
Man __________________
Time


The line represents time. God, being above time, can see what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen. God take the beginning point and end point and can view them at the same time. Therefore, our actions might be "fatalistic" however they are only done so after we have made that choice (in God's eyes).

 

[JookieRed]

Ok. I'll accept that. Can you please refer me to the parts of the bible that describe this?

Thanks

 

[Rafael]

I was going to bring this up in a separate thread but I'll touch on it here.

Man has free will but god knows in advance what we are going to choose? Both can not be true. If I am standing at a crossroad with the choice of turning right or left, and god knows in advance that I will turn left, then I don't have a choice. I am following a pre-written script.

This absurd concept simply allows Christians to claim an all-powerful, all-knowing god while at the same time letting god off the hook for all the bad things in life and passing the blame on to man. I just wish you could hear how that sounds from my side.

God has worked out all things to good for those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose. Just because He does not intervene and force people to not choose evil, does not mean He is unable to use that evil to bring about good for those that choose to obey and love Him for their lives, being grateful for having a Redeemer and a chance to live as brothers and sisters with Christ. The problem is choice, and God suffers those who choose evil and rebellion as a defining contrast to His light and as a back drop to the light of those who come forth as His Sons and Daughters, making a choice for that which is good and right. They realize and love Him in truth and seek to know Him more. God suffers evil for a time, but eventually it is seperated from His presence forever, to live in the darkness it chose.

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Ro 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

 

[charis theou]

Ok. I'll accept that. Can you please refer me to the parts of the bible that describe this?

Thanks

It comes from more of a philisophical standpoint. In Isaiah and Psalms we learn that God is outside of time and in Jeremiah we learn that He knows us from while we are still in the womb. Add this with Biblical prophecy and we can see that God knows the past, present, and future. Plus, the Bible acknowledges time as something that is below God and something that is created (from Genesis 1). We also know from Romans that God has foreknowledge and a plan, but likewise we can deviate from that plan, though God knows we will because He has already seen it occur.

There is not one specific verse or even a bunch of verses put together than give a clear and concise view of this, however it is more piecing together the Biblical truths that we have.

If you would like, I will take the time to post the actual scriptures and explain them. However it will take a while as much explaining is needed on each scripture and there are many scriptures to use.

 

[heron]

God walked around the garden with them. They had some kind of a relationship that we can't even imagine. If you picture God as Father, think of the instruction as a little fatherly advice.

They had lives of innocence, relaxing in the garden with everything they needed. The knowledge of good and evil distresses our lives, and brings conflicts. It wasn't the fruit of evil that he protected them from, but the loss of innocence.

God was probably tearing his hair out like a parent of a toddler, saying, "I told them not to walk out in the road."

We tend to think of sin as something an obsessive, controlling God made up...but when you look at actions considered sin, most of them impact others or harm the person.

God has a lot to say in other books about not taking care of widows and orphans, using rigged measurements, not working your farm animals too hard...He's very practical when it comes to life instructions.

 

[Woodsman]

Adam and Eve are us, each day. Of course in differing proportions, depending what's on the table.

 

[james1]

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."


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Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?" Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.


Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?" NO! "...for that ALL have sinned." All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding:

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"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).


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Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."


They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD." Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you!


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[Svt4Him]

When god made Adam and Eve, they were as pure and innocent as children. They had no concept of right or wrong, good or evil. The only way they could gain this knowledge was to eat from the forbidden tree. Why did god put the tree there in the first place? Bait?

If I give my son a million toys, but only one he can't play with, is that bait?

How were they to know that disobeying god was wrong? They couldn’t. How then was it fair for god to punish them for this “sin”? If this was supposed to be a test of obedience, I hardly think it was a fair test.

Please explain!

How? Well, if I talk to my son, and I tell him not to do something because it's wrong, how does he know that it's wrong? I could be lying to him, but now my character is being questioned.

If I am standing at a crossroad with the choice of turning right or left, and god knows in advance that I will turn left, then I don't have a choice. I am following a pre-written script.

So if you drive past my house, and don't turn right, I know you will end up at the end of my street. Is it a pre-written script? Do you not have the choice to turn or not turn? Just because I know the outcome, doesn't mean you don't have a choice. And God is certainly infinitely more knowledgeable than I. Because God knows, doesn't mean He makes you do things.

 

[JookieRed]

If I give my son a million toys, but only one he can't play with, is that bait?

If you single out one toy that you forbid him to play with, yes, that is bait. You are drawing attention to that one toy. A child's curiosity will make them want to investigate this "taboo" toy.

 

[JookieRed]

How? Well, if I talk to my son, and I tell him not to do something because it's wrong, how does he know that it's wrong? I could be lying to him, but now my character is being questioned.

If you tell him not to do something for the first time and he disobeys you, you will probably punish him in some way and tell him not to do it again. That's how he learns. I would hope that you wouldn't just kill him the first time he disobeys you. That's what your god did, the loving fellow that he is. And he didn't just punish them, NO, he had to punish every one of their descendants until the end of time! He does this throughout the OT, punishing people for sins committed by their ancestors. Fair? Kind? Loving? Maybe, if you're brainwashed.