Adam, eve, and Original sin

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by bibleblevr

I have recently adopted TE as my view on creation.
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Dear Bibleblevr, Uh oh. Now, you will have to change your Screen Name. Bible believers can easily see that Adam was made long BEFORE any other living creature. Genesis 2:4-7

It's YOUR time to show us WHY you reject God's Truth in order to believe in TE.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Cyara]

I believe Adam is a personification of humanity, when they evolved from animals into beings who became self-aware. When 'Adam' became self-aware they would develop the knowledge of good and evil, and sin is born. Such an evolution wouldn't occure in a nighttime, but rather in thousands of years.


I don't think Adam was a real person, because recently, scientists discovered a Y chromosome in a man called Perry. His Y chromosome was so distinct from the "Adam Y chromosome" that his male lineage probably separated from all others about 338,000 years ago.

The first anatomically modern human fossils date back only 195,000 years, so Perry's Y chromosome lineage split from the rest of humanity long before our species appeared.

 

[enlightened1]

I have recently adopted TE as my view on creation. I have yet to sort out the problems posed to this view by, the Garden of eden, the concept of original sin, and of course Adam and Eve, to my satisfaction. How do you guys understand these people, events and places in the context of both evolution, and Scripture. My main question is how and when did sin enter the world?

Well, the first sinful act, even though there was no law against it, was the lie the devil told Eve, which she believed and became deceived by. But, the first sinful act that GOD could respond to (judge) was when Adam and Eve ate the 'forbidden fruit'. So, sin was already in the Garden before Adam sinned, but the LORD could not judge against it. But the truth is that Adam is the devil, and the first lie he told was the perverted commandment he told Eve was the truth, which commandment she regurgitated back to the serpent (who again is Adam, not a snake as myth would have it. Compare GEN 2:16-17 with GEN 3:2-3)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The way I see it, and I may be wrong, is that the creation story is metaphorical and represents everyone at all times.

So Eden is the state of not rebelling against God, then we all get to an age when we are tempted and do what we know is wrong and we fall from grace. So in this way both Adam and Eve represent everyone.

Original sin (not that I was ever taught that when I was a YEC anyway) can be seen as natural desires in our biology to want things we shouldn't or a corrupt society which helps us to sin.

So sin entered the world when the human who was capable of knowing good from evil decided to do evil.

If what you say is true, we cannot have a Christianity. The Christian religion becomes meaningless, because there was no Fall, therefore Jesus was just another prophet. He did not take our sin upon the Cross, because there was no Fall, and therefore no sin. Mankind is what he has always been. He was originally created with an evil streak.

The Fall represents a change from man being sinlessly perfect, to a fallen creature with a sinful nature. To have that happen, we have to believe that Genesis is an accurate historical records of events. Adam and Eve had to be real people who disobeyed God and through their disobedience, sin and evil entered the world.

What you are proposing is a type of neo-theological humanism, that man has caused his own problems and can put them right by himself without having to depend on a divine Saviour.

 

[frogman2x]

Well, the first sinful act, even though there was no law against it, was the lie the devil told Eve, which she believed and became deceived by. But, the first sinful act that GOD could respond to (judge) was when Adam and Eve ate the 'forbidden fruit'. So, sin was already in the Garden before Adam sinned, but the LORD could not judge against it. But the truth is that Adam is the devil, and the first lie he told was the perverted commandment he told Eve was the truth, which commandment she regurgitated back to the serpent (who again is Adam, not a snake as myth would have it. Compare GEN 2:16-17 with GEN 3:2-3)

I beleive the first sinful act was when Satan and some angles rebelled against God(Ezk 28:16).

What makes you think Adam was the devil? Adam had relations wih his wife and produced a child. Angels cannot have children. That iss why they do not marry and are not given in marriage.

kermit

 

[frogman2x]

I believe Adam is a personification of humanity, when they evolved from animals into beings who became self-aware. When 'Adam' became self-aware they would develop the knowledge of good and evil, and sin is born. Such an evolution wouldn't occure in a nighttime, but rather in thousands of years.<<


Where is your evidence that man evolved from an animal. Do you not knowthat is biologially impossible?


>>I don't think Adam was a real person, because recently, scientists discovered a Y chromosome in a man called Perry. His Y chromosome was so distinct from the "Adam Y chromosome" that his male lineage probably separated from all others about 338,000 years ago.<<


That is absurd and has no scientific validity. How did they check Adam's Y chromosome??? Evolutionts like to throw our numbers but never offer any evidsence the number is correct. At leat you used "probably." Where is your evidence that it probably happend 338,000 years ago.

>>The first anatomically modern human fossils date back only 195,000 years, so Perry's Y chromosome lineage split from the rest of humanity long before our species appeared.

<<

That is rehtoric. Where is your evidence?

kermit

 

[frogman2x]

Dear Bibleblevr, Uh oh. Now, you will have to change your Screen Name. Bible believers can easily see that Adam was made long BEFORE any other living creature. Genesis 2:4-7

It's YOUR time to show us WHY you reject God's Truth in order to believe in TE.

In Love,
Aman

You need to go back to Gen 1:24-31. There you will findthat the animals and man were created on the same day, the 6th day.

kermit

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Aman777

Dear Bibleblevr, Uh oh. Now, you will have to change your Screen Name. Bible believers can easily see that Adam was made long BEFORE any other living creature. Genesis 2:4-7

​

You need to go back to Gen 1:24-31. There you will findthat the animals and man were created on the same day, the 6th day.

kermit

Dear kermit, Not quite. The reference to the "creation" of Adam and Eve happened on the 6th Day BUT Adam was "formed of the dust of the ground" on the 3rd Day, the SAME Day the Earth was made but BEFORE the plants GREW.

The Earth was made the 3rd Day (Gen. 1:9-10) and the plants GREW on the SAME 3rd Day. (Gen. 1:12) Adam was "created in God's Image" or born again Spiritually on the 6th Day. Adam could NOT have been created in God's Image, or born Spiritually on the 3rd Day because Eve was not made until the 6th Day. Gen. 2:22

This places Adam in FIRST place and not in last as Godless Evolism teaches.

BTW, Genesis 1:28-31 is PROPHECY of events which have NOT yet taken place on the present 6th Day. They will NOT happen until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet. Isaiah 11:7

In Love,
Aman

 

[gluadys]

If what you say is true, we cannot have a Christianity. The Christian religion becomes meaningless, because there was no Fall, therefore Jesus was just another prophet. He did not take our sin upon the Cross, because there was no Fall, and therefore no sin.

I don't know how people come to such a ridiculous conclusion. If we look around us we see plainly that people sin. Therefore there was a Fall. Therefore we need redemption.

The Fall and the need for redemption from sin does not depend on whether one particular person disobeyed God one particular time. Had Adam not eaten the forbidden fruit it would simply mean the Fall did not occur in Adam's generation and it must have occurred later, in another generation.

But the evidence that there was a Fall, by whomever it was initiated, is all around us in the fact that all have sinned.

The Fall represents a change from man being sinlessly perfect, to a fallen creature with a sinful nature.

Let's be careful with our language here. To be sinless does not mean to be perfect (and scripture never describes humanity as "perfect" even in Eden.) To be sinless means to be innocent--without guilt.

The innocent person has not sinned, but is capable of sin.

Perfection is what awaits us in glory when the redeemed will be not only free of sin, but incapable of sin.

To have that happen, we have to believe that Genesis is an accurate historical records of events. Adam and Eve had to be real people who disobeyed God and through their disobedience, sin and evil entered the world.

No we don't. Since it is the factual existence of sin which is the basis of the need for redemption, it doesn't matter if Adam is a historical individual or not. Adam can be a personification of the whole human species which once knew innocence but incurred guilt. Real people did sin. That was the Fall, whoever they were and whenever it first happened.


Insisting that Adam had to be a real person for sin to be real and redemption necessary seems to me to be an evasion of responsibility for one's own sin. It avoids the real and present fact of sin and especially of one's own sin.
I need a Saviour because I sin, not because a historical Adam sinned. Everyone of us who sins needs a Saviour and would do so even if a historical Adam personally did not.

 

[holyrokker]

If Adam is simply a representation of Mankind, we can see that Mankind sins and is separated from God, just as each person sins and is separated from God.

There is no need for the doctrine of Original Sin to explain Mankind's sin.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Contrary to what many "scholars" have reported, Genesis two is not a retelling of Genesis one. How can we determine this to be true? First, we should examine the overall context. Genesis two is considerably different in regard to the emphasis of the content. Genesis one dedicates 4 verses (13%) to the creation of humans, beginning with verse 26. However, Genesis two dedicates 19 verses (76%) to the creation of humans, beginning with verse 7. Actually, since there are no real chapter breaks in the original Hebrew manuscripts, the story of the creation of humans continues throughout chapter 3 (another 24 verses). Obviously, the emphasis of the two "versions" is quite different. Part of the problem understanding this passage is because of the poor choice of English words in the common translations. The Hebrew word erets can be translated as "earth" (meaning global) or "land" (referring to a local geographical area). In the Old Testament, erets almost always refers to local geography and not the planet as a whole. We need to examine the context to determine whether erets refers to the entire earth or only a portion of it.

In contrast to Genesis one, there are no indications that the text is referring to global creation. In fact, Genesis 2 begins with God planting a garden8 in a place called Eden, whose location is described in the text that follows. In all, there are three other place names mentioned along with four rivers (verses 10-14). The second place name is Havilah, which is thought to be near the Caspian Sea.9 The third is Cush, which is thought to be a location in Southern Egypt or Ethiopia.10 The fourth is Assyria, which constitutes modern Iraq and Iran.11 Of the four rivers described in the text, only two are definitively identifiable. The Tigris12 and Euphrates13 Rivers run though Iraq and Iran. All the events of Genesis 2 occur in Eden, which is bounded by the three other locations, putting it within the Mesopotamian flood plain.

The narrative continues with descriptions of creation events. Adam was placed in the garden to cultivate it. God brought to Adam the animals He had already created for him to name.14 Since a suitable companion was not found for Adam, God created Eve.15 The narrative concludes with the initiation of the first marriage.16 All the creation descriptions in Genesis two can be attributed to the preparation of a place in which the first humans would live. Therefore, Genesis two further develops the account of mankind's creation at the end of the sixth day.

So genesis 2 is not speaking of the whole but of eden. Not the earth.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Also if the world is young than there should be grass fully grown but the grass was a seedling and still growing.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

he Hebrew word yom occurs over 2000 times in the Old Testament. In Genesis 1, the word yom is used in combination with Hebrew words ereb3 (the word for "evening") and boquer4 (the word for "morning"). The claim has been made that when yom is used with the words "evening" or "morning," it always refers to a 24-hour day:

"Outside Genesis 1, yom is used with the word &#8216;evening&#8217; or &#8216;morning&#8217; 23 times. &#8216;Evening&#8217; and &#8216;morning&#8217; appear in association, but without yom, 38 times. All 61 times the text refers to an ordinary day&#8212;why would Genesis 1 be the exception?"1

Actually, they don't even get their facts correct. There are 42 verses (not 23) outside Genesis 1 in which yom is used in combination with either "evening" or "morning" (or both).5 The Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning" are juxtaposed only 12 times outside Genesis 1.6 In seven of those verses, the word order is reversed from that found in Genesis 1.6 Most of these verses do refer to 24 hour days, since they discuss the sacrificial system. However, a verse from the Psalms does not refer to a 24-hour day:

They who dwell in the ends of the earth stand in awe of Your signs; You make the dawn [boqer] and the sunset [ereb] shout for joy. (Psalm 65:8)

Moses, the author of Genesis 1, also wrote Psalm 90.7 In this Psalm, Moses compares 1000 years to a single day or a watch in the night.8 In the next verse, he compares human lives to grass. He says that the grass sprouts in the morning and withers in the evening. Realistically, grasses live at least several days or weeks before dying. Evening and morning in this example do not refer to a 24-hour period of time:

You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning [boqer] they are like grass which sprouts anew. In the morning [boqer] it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening [ereb] it fades and withers away. (Psalm 90:5-6)

Later, in the same Psalm, Moses includes a plea that God satisfy us with His love in the morning (boqer) that we may sing all our days (a lifetime of days, again, is usually longer than 24 hours):

O satisfy us in the morning [boqer] with Your lovingkindness, That we may sing for joy and be glad all our days [yom]. (Psalm 90:14)

Another verse, from Daniel, refers to a period of prophecy:

He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer]; then the holy place will be properly restored." (Daniel 8:14)

Some interpret the period of 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 days, while other calculate it as 1,150 days (2,300 divided by 2).9 Still others interpret the 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 years.10 It is not absolutely clear that the reference is to 24-hour days.

Outside Genesis 1, yom occurs only 4 times in combination with both Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning." The actual word order of "evening" followed by "morning" in combination with yom (as seen in Genesis 1) occurs only once outside Genesis 1. It is ironic that this one verse comes from Daniel 8:26, which defines yom as a period of time at least 3000 years long:

"The vision of the evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer] Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days [yom] in the future." (Daniel 8:26)

Obviously, the claim that "All 61 times the text refers to an ordinary day-why would Genesis 1 be the exception" is false, just from this verse - the only verse that perfectly matches the usage found in Genesis 1.

"Evening" has the additional meaning of "ending" and "morning" has the meaning of "dawning" or "beginning".11 The order of "evening morning" is not insignificant. Each day described in Genesis 1 is completed by "evening" (ending) juxtaposed with "morning" (beginning). So, the usage fits the interpretation of the ending of one day and the beginning of the next.

godandscience.org

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Hebrew is best to learn and not English.

He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations, (Psalm 105:8)

Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations, (1 Chronicles 16:15)

"Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments; (Deuteronomy 7:9)


Notice this God had command his commands for a 1,000 years and most lived at least until 40. So 40,00

The Bible does give an idea of how many generations have lived under God's commandments. At least three verses in the Old Testament indicate that humans have been around for at least 1000 generations. Since a biblical generation is usually listed at 40 years, this would suggest that modern humans have existed for at least 40,000 years.

 

[greentwiga]

I have studied the passages very closely and have concluded that the Bible has no problem with life coming about through evolution. I have many points, but will give just three.

1) If a thousand years is like a watch in the night, then a 24 hour day is like 6,000 years. Notice the deliberate vagueness, 24 hours could be 1000 years or 6000 years.

2) Another much neglected verse is Gen 2:4. "These are the generations of..." First, the day in the verse covers all six days of creation, from the heavens and earth to man. Second, there are generations before Adam and Eve. The number of generation from the man of Gen 1 to Adam of Gen 2 is not stated. It could have been 3000 generations.

3) Adam of Gen 1 covers both men and women. It does not say that there was only one of each. Adam of Gen 2 is only the man. Eve is the woman. Adam is not a term used to describe the woman of Gen 2. Gen 2 clearly describes a location in Mesopotamia, while Gen 1 does not specify a location and could be East Africa about 70,000 years ago.

The Bible allows this interpretation, and therefore has no problem with evolution as currently stated, or if later Scientists word it differently.

I strongly en=courage you to use Gen 2:4. Only relying on saying the day could be longer than 24 hours is weak. The more lines of arguments you can field strengthens your point. Therefore, I state there were generations from Gen 1 to Gen 2

By the way, the accuracy of Gen 2 amazes me, and I am a scientist.

 

[Sayre]

I thought I would throw into the mix a link to Assyrian's blog, since his recent blog post on Adam actually addresses these issues.

Simian in the Temple | If we are evolved apes, what are apes doing in the temple of God? What does a simian in the temple think when presented with the son of the Son of God? Christianity Science and the bible, and trying to make sense of it all in t

Happy reading folks.

 

[Assyrian]

I thought I would throw into the mix a link to Assyrian's blog, since his recent blog post on Adam actually addresses these issues.

Simian in the Temple | If we are evolved apes, what are apes doing in the temple of God? What does a simian in the temple think when presented with the son of the Son of God? Christianity Science and the bible, and trying to make sense of it all in t

Happy reading folks.

Thanks Sayre

 

[SkyWriting]

Since a biblical generation is usually listed at 40 years, this would suggest that modern humans have existed for at least 40,000 years.

I only consider those under 20 to be "modern". 30 and 40 year olds can be pretty old fashioned. Some don't agree with gay marriage or legalized Pot. So, I say 40 years, not 40,000.