Adam, Eve, and Evolution

myst33 said:

How about this: There is an objective "physical" reality. This reality is independent on the Bible or on our knowledge. It simply is. We can get to know it gradually, correcting and expanding our knowledge.

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Fine with me.

But when 'objective "physical" reality' contradicts the Bible, then it's 'correcting and expanding our knowledge' time.

tonychanyt said:

Was there evidence of deaths before Adam and Eve sinned?

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Ophiocordyceps unilateralis​

Ophiocordyceps unilateralis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also:

Loa loa​

Loa loa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AV1611VET said:

But when 'objective "physical" reality' contradicts the Bible, then it's 'correcting and expanding our knowledge' time.

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I am not sure what this sentence is supposed to mean.

When the objective reality contradicts the Bible, for example that there is no solid firmament or the Earth is not flat, then the objective reality is the way to go.

myst33 said:

I am not sure what this sentence is supposed to mean.

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Here are the standards I go by:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

myst33 said:

When the objective reality contradicts the Bible, for example that there is no solid firmament or the Earth is not flat, then the objective reality is the way to go.

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In the first example you gave, a solid dome, I run it through this standard:

4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x

The Bible does not say it was a "solid dome."

Those who say it is a solid dome NEVER use the word the Bible uses; and never will.

Thus I go with what science says, over what someone says the Bible says, when the Bible doesn't say that.

AV1611VET said:

The Bible does not say it was a "solid dome."

Those who say it is a solid dome NEVER use the word the Bible uses; and never will.

Thus I go with what science says, over what someone says the Bible says, when the Bible doesn't say that.

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I said firmament, not dome.

myst33 said:

I said firmament, not dome.

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Okay, fair enough.

Here's what you said:

myst33 said:

When the objective reality contradicts the Bible, for example that there is no solid firmament or the Earth is not flat, then the objective reality is the way to go.

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Where did that word "solid" come from?

AV1611VET said:

Where did that word "solid" come from?

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From the word firmament. Firmamentum means a firm object.

Biblically, it holds waters above, it has gates and windows and sun, moon stars are placed in it.


Nothing of these is scientifically true. It appears to be so, from a human perspective. But it is not so, from the objective reality perspective.

Like from our perspective, it seems that we are stationary and sun orbits the earth. But it is not so.

myst33 said:

From the word firmament. Firmamentum means a firm object.

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So let me get this straight?

The Bible says "firmament."

You, however, believe that It should say "solid dome," based on where the word "firmament" comes from?

Is that correct?

Then, you claim "solid dome" is incorrect and non-scientific ... right?

And if "solid dome" is incorrect, then why are we having this conversation?

myst33 said:

Biblically, it holds waters above, it has gates and windows and sun, moon stars are placed in it.

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Biblically, there are three "firmaments" (also called "heavens") in Genesis 1.

Have you ever noticed that "heaven" is singular in Genesis 1:1, but plural in Genesis 2:1?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

The reason for that, is because God created two more firmaments.

Here's the rundown:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the [first heaven -- outer space] and the earth.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a [second heaven - atmosphere] in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the [ocean] waters from the [space] waters.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the [atmosphere], and divided the [ocean] waters which were under the [atmosphere] from the [space] waters which were above the [atmosphere - i.e., in outer space]: and it was so.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the [second] heaven [outer space] to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the [second] firmament of the heaven [outer space] to give light upon the earth,

In short:

First Heaven = atmosphere = 0-62 miles up

Second Heaven = outer space = 62 miles up - edge of physical universe

Third Heaven = edge of physical universe - Heavenly realm -- (Heaven proper)

myst33 said:

Nothing of these is scientifically true. It appears to be so, from a human perspective. But it is not so, from the objective reality perspective.

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You are moving about in first heaven, which starts at your feet and goes up 62 miles, looking up into second heaven, and believing some far-fetched story about second heaven being a solid dome.

Then you're blaming that on the [human] author of the Bible, thinking he was writing from ignorance.

I contend he was not the ignorant one.

No offense.

BNR32FAN said:

Personally I believe in a literal 6 day creation.

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Not sure what I believe in, but I will tell you one thing - for sure science lies about a LOT of stuff , so I'm pretty sure they lie about our origin and our planet and space and stuff like that.

AV1611VET said:

You are moving about in first heaven, which starts at your feet and goes up 62 miles, looking up into second heaven, and believing some far-fetched story about second heaven being a solid dome.

Then you're blaming that on the [human] author of the Bible, thinking he was writing from ignorance.

I contend he was not the ignorant one.

No offense.

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These are all just your fantasies and personal interpretations. The authors of the Bible did not hold your view, which you can find out in for example Bible Dictionaries.

myst33 said:

These are all just your fantasies and personal interpretations.

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And whose "fantasies and personal interpretations" belong to the solid dome interpretation?

myst33 said:

The authors of the Bible did not hold your view,

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How do you know?

Did you interview them?

myst33 said:

... which you can find out in for example Bible Dictionaries.

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Where Bible dictionaries disagree with the Bible, then Bible dictionaries are wrong.

myst33 said:

These are all just your fantasies and personal interpretations.

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And by the way, just so you won't think I'm alone in this:

1. THE FIRST HEAVEN—We learn about this in Isaiah 55:10, which says, “For as the rain and the snow come down from Heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater…” This is talking about the atmosphere surrounding our planet. It extends as far as 300 miles into space and refers to the sky. This deals with clouds, birds, oxygen and the gasses that make life here possible. No other planet exists with an atmosphere like ours.

2. THE SECOND HEAVEN—David wrote in Psalm 19:1-6 about the second heaven, namely the universe. He wrote, “The Heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims His handiwork.” He writes about the influence of the sun and moon on our planet. There are an infinite number of stars and galaxies and astronomers tell us the universe is constantly expanding. Jesus referred to the second Heaven in Matt. 24:29, saying “…the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from Heaven, and the powers of the Heavens will be shaken.”

3. THE THIRD HEAVEN—God Himself dwells in the third Heaven. This was the paradise of which Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians. It’s the “Heaven of Heavens” according to Moses in Deut. 10:14. Jesus taught His disciples to pray saying, “Our Father in Heaven,” referring to the third and highest Heaven. Psalm 103:19 says, “The Lord has established His throne in the Heavens, and His kingdom rules over all.”

In fact, Deuteronomy 10:14 refers to all three in one verse: “Behold, to the Lord your God belong Heaven (#2) and the Heaven of Heavens (#3), the earth and all that is in it (#1).”

During our time on earth, we dwell in the first two heavens. Only by trusting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior can we go to the third heaven. Do you know for sure you are saved and headed to eternal paradise with your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Repent of your sins and believe in Him as your Lord and in His death and resurrection for you. Only then will you have a “Heavenly” home waiting for you.

SOURCE

AV1611VET said:

Unless it's on the test, right?

Then you'd better answer correctly, or else.

In addition, what are the chances of getting a job in a scientific setting?

May I ask what your area of science is in?

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Yep it’s rough going through post graduate work as a believer in Genesis but it can be done. I studied the DNA of bacteria viruses and rats. Everyone around me believed in evolution, but it is not required to understand the structure of DNA, RNA or anything else in biology.
I studied medicine and human biology and the going fad is evidence based medicine. What I found was that evolution is a narrative, not a valid scientific discipline. Of course they scoffed at me and some resorted to anger, but no one could give and evidence based explanation of evolution . It became an exercise in human imagination with no data to back it up
We creationists were made to look like fools but I accepted the humiliation and got my MD degree anyway. I don’t have the prestige and I work for a lesser salary than some of my colleagues, because of my Catholic faith, but the Lord has guided me to the right path.

As I study science more, I read evolutionary literature and it reads like a comic book. There is all flash and show about the story, but fast and loose with the facts. For instance they say chimp and humans are 98.2% identical, but they don’t tell you that is the content of total DNA not the actual structure of the chromosomes, and that 1.8% still represents 35 million base pair differences. They tell you chimps and humans have a common ancestor but they can’t show you what it looks like, they ask you to imagine it, using peer pressure, crowd psychology, and embarrassment. That is not science, that is thought control. They don’t show you how a primate evolved into a chimp and a human, they just tell you it did. When you show them that their data has logical flaws they become insulted instead of instructive.
Yes it’s rough being a creationist in science, but it can be done.
I watched the story of Dock Ellis, a black baseball player that pitched in the 1960s and 70s, when there was segregation and white still used the N word. Dock was a racial pioneer, but his fellow players told him Dock, you are going to be called things you have never heard of, and treated in the most unfair, inhuman ways, but you can’t cry or yell about it or feel sorry for yourself. This is baseball, and when you step through those white lines, you better win. It was a very inspiring story.
I am not as great a man as Dock, but I took his attitude. So they don’t like creationists, but I do my job and I do it well. There are scientists greater than me that are working on the evidence and exposing evolution for the impossible fairy tale that it is. They gaslight the creationists for now, but have patience and stay strong, the truth will set them running soon enough.

For further reading, check out the Grandeur of God available on Amazon, or the Kolbe institute’s foundations restored or How the World was made in 6 days. Genesis is more scientific and leads to a more stable model consistent with the data, than Big Bang/Evolution narrative. Dig through the stories they are telling and look at the facts, all the evolution stories we are told in grade school are now shown to be frauds, yet they are still taught as truth to kids.

boughtwithaprice said:

We creationists were made to look like fools but I accepted the humiliation and got my MD degree anyway.

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There's a girl in our church who did the same thing.

She's an RN now.

In spite of her evolution training -- not with respect to it.

tonychanyt said:

any reference?

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You want a narrative as a reference?

How about The Preservation of Favoured Races, by C. R. Darwin?

RainySunflower said:

Not sure what I believe in, but I will tell you one thing - for sure science lies about a LOT of stuff , so I'm pretty sure they lie about our origin and our planet and space and stuff like that.

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I don’t know about lies but many people don’t realize that their dating methods are based on predictions and assumptions.

Jipsah said:

Funny, it was still God doing the creating, wasn't it? You saying He was bound by time then? That "Psalm 9i0:4 "For in Your sight a thousand years are but a day that passes, or a watch of the night." Didn't apply then, but only when your doctrine agrees with it? No wonder fundies are ready to believe any hogwash that any slick scripture-twister invents!

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If you want to get technical God exists in all time simultaneously so then the six day creation wouldn’t have anything at all to do with how long creation took from His perspective because everything is happening simultaneously from His perspective. So your explanation still doesn’t hold any water.