Adam and Eve... perfect?

[rob64]

I think the word 'perfect' might be a little overrated as far as A/E are concerned. I think the word God chose was "good".

But, along comes Jesus and says that "no one is good, but God alone".

I think the real question is, 'what part of Adam did God see as good'. ?
Since man is spirit, soul, and body...

IMO; When God does something, the outcome is good. Then satan intervenes and the outcome changes. Then God intervenes again!...
Until Adam MADE THE WRONG DECISION, He WAS good

 

[nephilimiyr]

Issue with #2: If Adam and Eve were not created to be perfect then why were these imperfect people punished for making the imperfect decision to rebel against God? And why wouldn't have God made them to be perfect?

.

There is God's perfect will and God's permissive will. He permitted the sin but if it was God's perfect will for them to rebel, then why would He punish them?

I think you have to study a bit about the motivation God had for creating man to answer that question. In order to do that we need to study his nature and character.

Myles Munroe wrote: "One such characteristic is that God is Love (1 John 4:8-16). Please note that He does not say that He "has" love but that He "is" love. This is an important distinction when it comes to understanding His motivation, because if God is love, then His actions would naturally or supernaturally be the manifestation of the nature of love. One of the odvious qualities of love is that love has to give and share itself. If this be so, then the very nature of God would be to desire to share His rulership and government. In essence, love is fulfilled when it gives and shares itself."

In order for God to create a physical and spiritual being that was in His image and to be able to manage and rule His kingdom on earth, He had to give them free will. There just is something not right about creating beings for the purpose to share His love who would then have no recourse but to accept it. The operation would be fruitless as those robot beings would not understand the joy and love that God would be sharing with them, there would be nothing for them to compare it to. Basically, they would have no other choice. That sounds more like slavery rather than freely chosing to love and worship him. Free will had to be apart of the equation.

When God was done creating Adam and Eve He didn't say they were perfect, just that it was very good, and it was, and they were. God set them in the middle of the garden to do nothing but chill. No, lol, they had a job to do, God made them the managers of earth. Basically they were Gods representatives here on earth. They were within the boundries of God's Holy Kingdom of Heaven here in earth. God as King, Adam and Eve as the vice-lords, or governors. Within any goverrnment there are rules and laws, the Kingdom of heaven is no different. And the most serious crime in any government is the act of treason. Essencially that is what Adam and Eve committed when they disobeyed the will of the King and sinned. Thus the verdict was read and punishment handed out.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Nevermind!

 

[Cassidy]

I think he had to have the ability being a human and also so that he could be the same as Adam who had the ability. The whole idea was that the new Adam was going to fix what the first adam stuffed up on. He had to have had the ability...the free will/choice...the same as Adam. The difference was....that Adam chose wrongly and Christ chose correctly.

He had the ability to be tempted by satan too...just like Adam was...but unlike Adam, being as how Christ was Christ...he didn't succumb to the temptation!

But I think the key point here is....what was the difference between Adam and Christ? What did Christ have that Adam didn't have? They both would have had choice and ability...and yet Christ made a different choice...the ONLY one that Christ would ever make, when faced with a choice - the right one!

Anyway this is my own mianderings in my mind...somewhat naive but there it is

 

[Alpine]

If Jesus couldn't sin, then he couldn't have been tempted, which scripture clearly says He was.

 

[heron]

There is a great satisfaction as a parent, teacher, or leader of watching people under you make wise choices on their own. The goodness is in the tension of wondering what might come, and then seeing beneficial or inventive choices made, sometimes more than you anticipated.

It is a sacrifice to give up perfection in order for others to find it. When others strive for it on their own, it is better than perfection. The desire for goodness has been generated, multiplied, and shown the ability to procreate.

Perfection submits all its parts under a mold, where nothing can break out with a voice or an idea. Trusting the outcome of a fallible, destructible world brings new things every day.

(The concept is very Myles Munroe... like trusting employees to bring their strengths and ideas to an organization... the employees' contributions make the company, under the oversight of a coordinating leader.)

 

[heron]

It ties in well with the thread going here on trusting God's love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoPcn7g0OVA

 

[rob64]

Interesting, I have to disagree, I don't believe Jesus had the ability to sin. I have to think about this, will get back...

Jesus was tempted "in all points", as we are -Bible. lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life.

This is how it works;
You get tempted... [so far, this is not sin]
You have a choice... either give into the temptation, (which produces the sin), or refuse to give in, and don't sin.

We are never tempted to do what is right, rather, to do what is wrong.
Jesus had to be tempted just like us, because He had to be perfect in order to qualify as the Sacrificial Lamb

It's all scriptural

 

[Cheri67]

We are never tempted to do what is right, rather, to do what is wrong.
Jesus had to be tempted just like us, because He had to be perfect in order to qualify as the Sacrificial Lamb

It's all scriptural

Are you speakin of being 'tempted' by satan alone? Or tempted in general?

Interestin comment from you...tempted to do good from satan, no. But really..when you think about it..how much of our day is actually 'tempted' every second? Take it as deep as you wish...food for thought

Ive been tempted to do the right thing, do good..and of course, usually fail and have to repent..

Sorry for ramblin...you just made my mind fly off on a thinkin tangent Rob..lol

God bless

 

[Cassidy]

I don't think we are 'tempted' to do good but we are 'urged' to do good

 

[Cheri67]

I disagree really...theres a certain umm..substance to 'urge', which is one feelin..so to speak. And the same with 'tempted'. Urge and tempted have seperate meanings..and I myself can say Ive been tempted to do good

Ehh..hard to explain..Im tired right now and gotta headache..lol

 

[heron]

Some thoughts...

If we claim that humans attained a level of perfection, that could slide us into a realm where we don't see ourselves as dependent on God anymore. We are His children. Joint heirs with Christ. Servants of the Most High God.

As perfect-as-humans-can-be.... would that push a human beyond normal capabilities? Using one's brain to its full capacity, keeping oneself in perfect physical shape, spending hours daily in prayer, not succumbing to any vices --even laughing at a mistake, being gullible, or having an extra mango? I'm not sure what perfect is.

Most of us, when getting close to what we would consider perfection, start getting arrogant about it and make ourselves horribly imperfect in attitude. Getting closer to perfection usually makes humans fall.

This path of logic does not mean that I am right and Adam and Eve weren't perfect. But if they were the same species of human being as we are, we'd have to wonder. Would they turn out like the jocks in a California teen movie?

If we look back through our lives, and the high points where we felt we were closer to perfection... there tends to be a fall after a high point. Or a retrospective regret that we had ignored someone close to us, or neglected something important. A humbling. A realization that even when we think we've almost reached goodness and purity, we are even farther from it.

But then, maybe that's what happened at the Fall.

 

[ANM29]

Jesus being ' tempted ' does not mean he 'desired' the thing that was presented to him. Temptation also means to be presented with an opportunity, not always 'desiring' the thing presented to you. I don't believe he could have sinned being that he was implanted by the Holy Spirits 'sperm' into a an untouched female. God had a reason for doing that, so that Christ would not be contaminated with the nature of sin.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Some thoughts...

If we claim that humans attained a level of perfection, that could slide us into a realm where we don't see ourselves as dependent on God anymore. We are His children. Joint heirs with Christ. Servants of the Most High God.

As perfect-as-humans-can-be.... would that push a human beyond normal capabilities? Using one's brain to its full capacity, keeping oneself in perfect physical shape, spending hours daily in prayer, not succumbing to any vices --even laughing at a mistake, being gullible, or having an extra mango? I'm not sure what perfect is.

Most of us, when getting close to what we would consider perfection, start getting arrogant about it and make ourselves horribly imperfect in attitude. Getting closer to perfection usually makes humans fall.

This path of logic does not mean that I am right and Adam and Eve weren't perfect. But if they were the same species of human being as we are, we'd have to wonder. Would they turn out like the jocks in a California teen movie?

If we look back through our lives, and the high points where we felt we were closer to perfection... there tends to be a fall after a high point. Or a retrospective regret that we had ignored someone close to us, or neglected something important. A humbling. A realization that even when we think we've almost reached goodness and purity, we are even farther from it.

But then, maybe that's what happened at the Fall.

I don't think I could agree more with this post. Good job Heron!

 

[rob64]

Are you speakin of being 'tempted' by satan alone? Or tempted in general?

Interestin comment from you...tempted to do good from satan, no. But really..when you think about it..how much of our day is actually 'tempted' every second? Take it as deep as you wish...food for thought

Ive been tempted to do the right thing, do good..and of course, usually fail and have to repent..

Sorry for ramblin...you just made my mind fly off on a thinkin tangent Rob..lol

God bless

Thanx for your delightful reply!

Uhmm... satan is the "temptor of the brethren"- don't know if that's scripture, but i've heard it all my life!

There's a diference between desires and temptation.
Our spirit desires to do good, and our soul desires to do bad.

Bible says there are 3 ways in which we are tempted
lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

Our flesh seeks to have it's desires met, while our spirit wants to please God.

As sinners, our spirit and soul are as one, you can't tell them apart.
Then the Word - the sword of the Spirit - comes in and devides the two.

Does this help?