AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?

[Christian Gedge]

This topic is a continuation of my AD 30 to AD 70 thread, and outlines a Historicist approach to the ‘beast empires’ and the ‘10 horns’ of Daniel 7.

As in the previous topic, there have also been misconceptions, this time concerning the era following the ‘beast’ of Rome. Once again, they arise from competing interpretations of Daniel except in this case, from chapter 7.

• The first misconception comes from futurists who, yet again, break the continuity of the prophecy, and insert about 1500 years between the fourth beast (Rome) and the ten ‘horns.’ (Dan 7:7) Typically, they interpret the horns as ten nations in the European Union. (EU)

• The second misconception comes from preterists who, in their zeal of the AD 70 event, interpret the ‘horns’ as Roman emperors. They choose them selectively to finish with Vespasian as the tenth emperor, so as to reinforce their theory of AD 70 being the second coming of Christ.

As you know, my position is Amil-historicist which is sort of in-between. The basic tenet of historicism is that prophecy has been gradually unfolding over the ages. Another tenet is the near/far aspect of some prophecy. (Some call it ‘dual fulfilment’) What it means is that an early event occurs but is precursor to a greater fulfilment to come. A third tenet of historicism is the ‘year-day’ theory, however I have rejected that one.

Here is the background in brief. Daniel has a dream of four great beast empires. (Dan. 7:1-7) They arrived as predicted, and all major schools agree to this point!

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Greece
   
4. Rome

Ok, let’s get started from the opening post header. Rome was the ‘beast’ in AD 70. A short while later Rome reached its greatest extent (AD 117) Map coming up.

 

[Christian Gedge]

This is how the Roman empire looked at its greatest extent. It’s worth studying because from within these boundaries arise the 10 ‘horns.’ (Dan. 7:24) I’ll be putting up later maps to compare with this one.

It’s also worth noting that at about this time Jesus’ prediction concerning the dispersion of the Jews took place. (AD 135 Bar Kokhba revolt) It’s the first example proving that prophecy did not cease at AD 70.

“They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)​

 

[Peter J Barban]

The principal of a break in prophecy is used by Jesus in Luke 4

"16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Jesus did not quote the part

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Jesus did not finish the quote from Isaiah 61:1-2 about the day of vengeance because that was yet to be fulfilled.

Granted that doesn't mean we can always divide prophecy this way, only that this doesn't violate any principals of scriptural interpretation.

 

[Christian Gedge]

The principal of a break in prophecy is used by Jesus in Luke 4

When the N.T. has an incomplete quotation from the O.T. it is more often a case of 'near/far fulfillment' than a 'gap' as futurists have it. With this in mind, I hope to show that the 10 horns had its fulfillment in the period when Rome was breaking up. Having said that, I'm not against the possibility that 10 powers will appear again.

Like I said, I'm historicist. That's half futurist and half part-pret.

 

[jgr]

The first misconception comes from futurists who, yet again, break the continuity of the prophecy, and insert about 1500 years between the fourth beast (Rome) and the ten ‘horns.’ (Dan 7:7) Typically, they interpret the horns as ten nations in the European Union. (EU)

That theory just got Brexited.

 

[Christian Gedge]

A natural reading of Daniel 7 suggests that the fourth beast (Roman Empire) would be divided into ten kingdoms. That is what Historicists think, and guess what? That’s what the early Church fathers thought too. Quoting Jerome:

“We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves.”​

Like he says, it was the general view. We could quote others, but for the sake of brevity, I would like to zero in to the historical situation that developed when the Roman Empire was breaking up. From the beginning of the 5th century German tribes began to pour over the Rhine river and invaded Rome’s northern and western provinces. Christian writers were aware of this. Jerome continued:

“Savage tribes in countless numbers have overrun all parts of Gaul. The whole country between the Alps and the Pyrenees, between the Rhine and the Ocean, has been laid waste by hordes of Suevi, Vandals, Alans, Gepids, Herules, Saxons, Burgundians, Alemanni.”​

Then, in AD 476 Rome was sacked but its other capital remained in Constantinople. Notice how there were now 13 distinct geo-political regions. (next map) Pretty close to “10 kingdoms” isn’t it?

 

[Christian Gedge]

This is how the Roman empire looked when it was breaking up. Notice how there were now 13 distinct geo-political regions. Ten horns in the making? Stay tuned.

 

[pasifika]

A natural reading of Daniel 7 suggests that the fourth beast (Roman Empire) would be divided into ten kingdoms. That is what Historicists think, and guess what? That’s what the early Church fathers thought too. Quoting Jerome:

“We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves.”​

Like he says, it was the general view. We could quote others, but for the sake of brevity, I would like to zero in to the historical situation that developed when the Roman Empire was breaking up. From the beginning of the 5th century German tribes began to pour over the Rhine river and invaded Rome’s northern and western provinces. Christian writers were aware of this. Jerome continued:

“Savage tribes in countless numbers have overrun all parts of Gaul. The whole country between the Alps and the Pyrenees, between the Rhine and the Ocean, has been laid waste by hordes of Suevi, Vandals, Alans, Gepids, Herules, Saxons, Burgundians, Alemanni.”​

Then, in AD 476 Rome was sacked but its other capital remained in Constantinople. Notice how there were now 13 distinct geo-political regions. (next map) Pretty close to “10 kingdoms” isn’t it?

Hello, there is no mention of the 4th beast being the Roman Empire in Daniel 7. But as you said is just a suggestion and it doesn't always the right one. The book of Daniel tells us where to look to find the information about the 4 beasts...

 

[Andrewn]

Hello, there is no mention of the 4th beast being the Roman Empire in Daniel 7.

The 3rd beast was the Greek empire. Immediately after the 3rd beast came the 4th beast, which is the Roman empire. Then came Lord Jesus, the Son of Man who was given dominion and glory.

Rev 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and there was one like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. 14 There was given to Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

It's not logical to separate the 3rd and 4th empires. No logic can conceive such an unwarranted separation.

 

[Douggg]

The first misconception comes from futurists who, yet again, break the continuity of the prophecy, and insert about 1500 years between the fourth beast (Rome) and the ten ‘horns.’ (Dan 7:7) Typically, they interpret the horns as ten nations in the European Union. (EU)

Gedge, I think you are starting off on the wrong foot, with the map(s). I think you should just focus on what kingdom was occupying Jerusalem at the time of the fulfillment of Daniel 9:26, messiah cutoff. And what kingdom will be occupying Jerusalem at the time of Jesus's second coming.

We (futurist) say 2000 years from Jesus cutoff to the beginning to the seventieth week. At the time of Jesus's first coming, the Roman Empire was occupying Jerusalem. At Jesus's second coming, likewise the end times Roman Empire army, the EU, will be occupying Jerusalem.

Here is the background in brief. Daniel has a dream of four great beast empires. (Dan. 7:1-7) They arrived as predicted, and all major schools agree to this point!

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Greece
   
4. Rome

Ok, let’s get started from the opening post header. Rome was the ‘beast’ in AD 70. A short while later Rome reached its greatest extent (AD 117) Map coming up.

To avoid confusion, I would not call the Roman Empire the "beast" in end times discussions, as that label applies to the arch villain of the end times ruling at the time when Jesus returns.

If you want to say fourth kingdom, empire - as that is what the term is in Daniel 7:23-24 - then okay.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
__________________________________________________________________

The Amil and historist view falls on it face, because it has no credible explanation for the 1260 days, the 3 1/2 days, the 42 months, the time, times, half time in Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

View attachment 271269


This is how the Roman empire looked when it was breaking up. Notice how there were now 13 distinct geo-political regions. Ten horns in the making? Stay tuned.

No. The ten horns are ten kings. They rule with the beast for one hour. The one hour, that the person is the beast is the 42 months of Revelation 13, after the two witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days.

You can't get away from that. 3 1/2 days. The whole world will witness them coming back to life and ascending to heaven. Modern times, Gedge.

 

[jgr]

A natural reading of Daniel 7 suggests that the fourth beast (Roman Empire) would be divided into ten kingdoms. That is what Historicists think, and guess what? That’s what the early Church fathers thought too. Quoting Jerome:

“We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves.”​

Like he says, it was the general view. We could quote others, but for the sake of brevity, I would like to zero in to the historical situation that developed when the Roman Empire was breaking up. From the beginning of the 5th century German tribes began to pour over the Rhine river and invaded Rome’s northern and western provinces. Christian writers were aware of this. Jerome continued:

“Savage tribes in countless numbers have overrun all parts of Gaul. The whole country between the Alps and the Pyrenees, between the Rhine and the Ocean, has been laid waste by hordes of Suevi, Vandals, Alans, Gepids, Herules, Saxons, Burgundians, Alemanni.”​

Then, in AD 476 Rome was sacked but its other capital remained in Constantinople. Notice how there were now 13 distinct geo-political regions. (next map) Pretty close to “10 kingdoms” isn’t it?

Historian E. B. Elliott, the Reformers, et al identified the ten horns/kingdoms as:

Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Anglo-Saxons

The little horn/kingdom as the Roman papacy.

The three horns/kingdoms which the papacy overthrew as:

Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths

 

[solid_core]

This is how the Roman empire looked when it was breaking up. Notice how there were now 13 distinct geo-political regions. Ten horns in the making? Stay tuned.

Eastern Roman Empire survived the fall of the West in 476 AD and lasted till 1453 AD when it fell to muslims.

During most of its existence, the empire was the most powerful economic, cultural and military force in Europe.

From 476 to 1453 its more or less 1,000 years, exactly as millenium. Coincidence?

 

[solid_core]

Eastern Roman Empire in 555 AD:

 

[Christian Gedge]

Eastern Roman Empire in 555 AD:

Good map, but 555 AD was Eastern Rome at its best. Like the west, it was shrinking too.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Historian E. B. Elliott, the Reformers, et al identified the ten horns/kingdoms as:

Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Anglo-Saxons

The little horn/kingdom as the Roman papacy.

The three horns/kingdoms which the papacy overthrew as:

Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths

The reformers were generally historicist in their eschatology, but after the 'great disappointment' of William Miller, there was a massive swing to dispensationalism.

My search for a credible doctrine has led me to reconsider the historicist pov, but Ive had to rejig some of the early details as laid out by Rev. Ellicott. The basic premise is correct though. Daniel 7 has been fulfilling gradually over the Church era!

It needs to be reconsidered by Part Prets and futurists alike. But I dont think my P.P. friends are reading this thread. Hey!

 

[jgr]

The reformers were generally historicist in their eschatology, but after the 'great disappointment' of William Miller, there was a massive swing to dispensationalism.

My search for a credible doctrine has led me to reconsider the historicist pov, but Ive had to rejig some of the early details as laid out by Rev. Ellicott. The basic premise is correct though. Daniel 7 has been fulfilling gradually over the Church era!

It needs to be reconsidered by Part Prets and futurists alike. But I dont think my P.P. friends are reading this thread. Hey!

What bona fide post-Reformation Reformers converted to dispensationalism?

Samuel Maitland et al who adopted Ribera's counter-Reformation counterfeit futurism were evidently essentially closet papists.

William Miller was no Reformer.

 

[pasifika]

The 3rd beast was the Greek empire. Immediately after the 3rd beast came the 4th beast, which is the Roman empire. Then came Lord Jesus, the Son of Man who was given dominion and glory.

Rev 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and there was one like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. 14 There was given to Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

It's not logical to separate the 3rd and 4th empires. No logic can conceive such an unwarranted separation.

Hello, I think most people look at history to figure out where the beasts coming from instead they must look at the bible first to lead them to look at the right place...
One clue from Daniel is All the 4 beasts comes from one place, (4 beasts comes the sea...Daniel 7:3)

 

[Andrewn]

One clue from Daniel is All the 4 beasts comes from one place, (4 beasts comes the sea...Daniel 7:3)

Do you know what "coming from the sea" means in Biblical language?

 

[pasifika]

Do you know what "coming from the sea" means in Biblical language?

Hello, coming from same nation, people etc opposite of "many waters" ....