Actual questions from a real athiest!

[fields316_2000]

i sent my athiest friend an email listing his faults and he replyed with these questions - help me answer them! it might be the begining of him finding salvation...

THE PERFECTION-vs.-CREATION ARGUMENT
1.) If God exists, then he is perfect..
2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the
universe.
3.) A perfect being can have no needs or wants.
4.) If any being created the universe, then he must
have had some need or want.
5.) Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to
be the creator of the universe (from 3 and 4).
6.) Hence, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1,
2, and 5).

PERFECTION/CREATION INCOHERENCE ARGUMENT
1.) God, by definition, is a perfect being.
2.) God, by definition, deliberately created the
universe.
3.) So, if God were to exist, then he would be a
perfect being who deliberately created something.
4.) To be perfect, one cannot have any needs or wants.
5.) To deliberately create something, one must have at
least one need or want.
6.) Thus, it is impossible for a perfect being to
deliberately create anything.
7.) Therefore, God cannot exist.

GOD's omnipresence (ever -present)

ARGUMENT FROM THE SELF
1.) If God exists, he is omnipresent (occupying all
space).
2.) Since God occupies all space, past, present, and
future, there is nothing that is NOT God.
3.) God therefore, cannot have a sense of the
independent self.
4.) Since God has no sense of the self or non-self, he
cannot have a consciousness.
5.) In conclusion, God cannot have a mind and would
resemble nothing more than the non-conscious Universe.

GOD is omniscience (all knowing)

1 John 3 3:20
in F21 whatever our heart condemns us; for God is
greater than our heart and knows all things.

Counter Arguments

ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn’t believe in
him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.

Comments: (Sure you may say I have a choice, but I
think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m
simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist
aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would
have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t
believe in him.)

ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all knowing)
2.) God knew that before he created man that they
would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden
anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.

Comments: (If God didn`t want sin to enter the world,
why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would
happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in
the first place?)

Why I had no choice arguments

ON MAN'S FREEWILL
1.) God has an unchangeable plan for everything past,
present & future.
2.) Everything that occurs past, present and future
will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3.) Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's
unchanging plan.
4.) Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than
what God has planned.
5.) Free-will doesn't exist.

FREEWILL ARGUMENT FOR THE NONEXISTENCE OF GOD
1.) The Christian God is a personal being and is
omniscient.
2.) Personal beings have free will.(according to most
Christians)
3.) To have freewill, a personal being must be able to
make a choice.
4.) A being who knows everything can have no "state of
uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
5.) God has no potential to avoid its choices, and
therefore has no free will.
6.) Since a being that lacks free will is not a
personal being, a personal being who knows everything
cannot exist.
7.) Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

INFALLIBLE KNOWLEDGE / FREEWILL ARGUMENT
1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the
Universe before it occurs.
2.) God can’t change the future because he knows
everything absolutely.
3.) God has no Free-will.


GOD is unchangeable

Numbers 23 :19
23:19
" God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of
man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He
not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it
good?

ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1.) If God exists, then he is immutable.
2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the
universe.
3.) An immutable being cannot at one time have an
intention and then at a later time not have that
intention.
4.) For any being to create anything, prior to the
creation he must have had the intention to create it,
but at a later time, after the creation, no longer
have the intention to create it.
5.) Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to
have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6.) Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from
1, 2, and 5)

All Powerfull

Ceds Arguement
Jeremiah 32:17 'Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made
the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by
Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for
You,

Summary
It cleary states that nothing is too difficult for God

Jaiyeson Argument

Question
1) Can god create a boulder so heavy that even God
himself could never lift it?
2) If nothing is to difficult for god then the answer
would be yes
3) There now exist a boulder to difficult for God to
lift
4) Jeremiah 32:17 is a logical error. God is not all
powerfull

However lets say you answer the question with a no.
1) Can god create a boulder so heavy that even God
himself could never lift it?
2) No, because God cannot create something he could
never lift. He would always be able to lift it.
3) There is something to difficult for God. He can
never create something he could never lift. It is
beyond his scope
4) Jeremiah 32:17 is a logical error. God is not all
powerfull

Counter argument to Jaiyeson with Jaiyeson
counter-counter arguments

1)God would never put itself into that scenatio thus
the scenario would never happen.
1-b) The statement presented in Jeremiah 32:17 allows
the argument to exist.
1-c) If God refused to do it he would acknowledge the
scenarios existence.
1-d) If God said the scenario does not exist. Then
once again God acknowledges the existence of the scenario

 

[fields316_2000]

can you guys bust him out, pray for hiim and help send him on the right track?

also is there any other translation for this following verse?

The King James Version (Authorized)

1 Corinthians 13
13:4
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth F47 not itself, is not puffed up,

he is determined to tell me that the word above is not envieth, but jeolous in a book that HE has..

 

[herzblutx88]

Wow your friend has many good points and I dont think Im yet qualified to answer those questions because I do not know the answers- Maybe later in the day someone else will.

 

[Rafael]

Instead of writing a book in the posts here, there are several web-sites devoted to giving answers to the questions posed. As a mattrer of fact, there are a battery of athesist and Christian web-sites that take these shots at each other in a war of words.
Proving that God exists to someone is difficult and proving He doesn't exist is probably even more difficult. God is the only one that can open a heart up to the truth, so pray that the Lord will open his heart as you put effort into answering his questions. Here are two good sites that may answer all your friends questions:

http://www.carm.org/

http://www.skepticalchristian.com/

Here's one for the question that supposes God will build a rock He can't pick up.... .

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/rock.html

Talking about God's omniscience with any authority is pretty difficult since we have no such powers over time and eternity. God created evil and knew how to use it to make something better by its existence. He suffers the existence of evil for a time, and then when what He wants from it is molded and shaped according to His purpose, it (evil) will be done away with forever.
We can only speculate and know in part how He has used the blackness and darkness of evil as contrast to His light and goodness, but perhaps that is the only way we would have the choice to know the difference between the two if not for the other being present. God knew how to do these things, and until man can make life or universes, to deny God these powers or even His existence is folly.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Jinn_Ku]

THE PERFECTION-vs.-CREATION ARGUMENT
3 is wrong.

PERFECTION/CREATION INCOHERENCE ARGUMENT
4 is wrong

ARGUMENT FROM THE SELF
2 should say "there is nothing that does not have some presence of God." Just because He is everywhere does not mean everything is Him. Oxygen is in our atmosphere, but our atmosphere is not made up entirely of oxygen.
thus, 3 is wrong.

ON HELL
He hasn't proven he doen't have a choice, nor is he fulfilling the will of God. So he makes assumptions from the beginning and makes conclusions based on faulty data. Common atheistic practice.

ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
He has no concept of freewill, rendering this topic far beyond his ability to logically conclude anything.

ON MAN'S FREEWILL
1 - I don't believe the Bible ever says His plan is unchangeable. In fact, the Bible says he changed His mind several times (such as when He was going to destroy Isreal in the desert).
2-5 are wrong again (see a pattern developing here?)

FREEWILL ARGUMENT FOR THE NONEXISTENCE OF GOD
4 does not lead to 5, making the conclusion illogical.

INFALLIBLE KNOWLEDGE / FREEWILL ARGUMENT
2 is wrong

GOD is unchangeable
That verse does not prove this. The verse says if God SAYS it, it will happen. He can, however, have a plan in his mind and still change it.

ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1 is wrong, rendering the whole thing sensless.

All Powerfull
This arguement is just plain silly. Ask if he can make a square circle out of construction paper. If he can, tell him to do it. If he cannot, he must not exist, as drawing is well within his physical limitations.

Whevever arguing with an atheist, apply the standards they use against Christianity to their own beleifs, and note how none of the things they beleive can be proven. I have angered many a person this way, but the point was made.

 

[Jinn_Ku]

Also, ask him if God does not excist, how can he prove it as it is not possible to prove a negative. Oddly, I've never gotten an answer to that one.

 

[klewlis]

There are so many things wrong with his premises and logic that I'm not even going to attempt to answer them. Jinn_Ku pointed out some of them. It always comes down to definitions and premises.

It is vital to remember that even if you answer all of these concerns perfectly, he is still not going to believe in God until the Holy Spirit changes his heart. So don't stress about it. Definitely engage in the conversation, but if you can't answer something, don't worry about it too much. It's not your job to know everything, or to change someone, or to make someone believe--that's all God's job. He asks only that you are faithful to him, make yourself available, and display Christ through your life and actions so that your friend can SEE God through you.

 

[David333]

Hmmm...there are answers to all these logical things, but I think that there are two main points to consider: a) logic to prove a god is just flawed. We're using our tiny minds to try to outwit a higher being (if God didn't want to reveal Himself to us, we'd never find out about Him); and b) it's CHRISTianity. We're disciples of Christ. I think that the best way to speak to your friend, is yes, discuss the issue of God, but gradually introduce questions about how he thinks Jesus is, and go from there.

 

[Sketcher]

To be perfect, one cannot have any needs or wants.

Why does he believe that is true?

If He has no needs or wants, then He would be without love. He would be a detached god, following some sort of Bhuddist philosophy. Our God loves us passionately and is perfect. His definition of perfection and the Bible's are completely different.

 

[Lyle]

Question
1) Can god create a boulder so heavy that even God
himself could never lift it?
2) If nothing is to difficult for god then the answer
would be yes
3) There now exist a boulder to difficult for God to
lift
4) Jeremiah 32:17 is a logical error. God is not all
powerfull

This whol thing is a logical fallacy....

Such a question, though seeming to be smart, proves to be nothing more then hot air when examined closely. First it shows one trying to disprove the concept of God by purposing/ putting forth, evidence that would cause such a being to contradict themselves, proving them false. But there are dangers to trying to disprove God this way...
First, you are acknowledging that God has the power to create (if, indeed, He were to exist as you try to prove false). But them one gives the fact that the rock is so big that He himself could not move it. This would play out nicely, if under the grounds that God was bound within our physical universe and was bound as time and space as we. This being, that He is only allotted X amount of strength with which He may exert at any one time to move said stone. This doing you are, rather ineffectively, trying to disprove God by dragging Him down to your level, a human level (as if you could).
If one were to truly attempt to disprove God in such a manner, they must argue His existence (or as said by the original questioner, the lack there of) on his grounds of who He is. One cannot disprove God by making Him less then He is, all it shows is their lack of knowledge, and ignorance to whom God truely is..... Which and arguement without knowledge or evidense, is scarecly a arguement at all.....

 

[SavedByGrace3]

i sent my athiest friend an email listing his faults....

My first thought is... why are you reheasing his faults to him???

 

[seebs]

These are fairly poor arguments; they're cut and paste from a list.

Show him a handful of old Anselm arguments, and ask if he finds them persuasive.

 

[fields316_2000]

I THANK YOU GUYS FOR THE HELP IN THE MATTER. ILL BE CONVERSING WITH HIM later on -

and im posting his faults because saying god is fake and jesus isnt real is wrong...and silly

 

[Lyle]

Sounds like a athiestsfavorite straws to grasp to me go figure...

 

[fields316_2000]

yeah i know - is it true that it was stated in the bible that everyone will have a conviction about the truth when its presented to them AND that the words will sting in the back of their heads after they reject the truth..

 

[phil_22]

How about this?

1. The universe had a beginning
2. All beginings have a cause
3. There is nothing apart from the universe
4. Therfore, the universe cannot exist

or this?

1. The universe is eternal (has no beginning)
2. 2nd law of thermodynamics says energy always moves
towards a less useful form
3. The amount of usable energy in the universe should be
zero since the universe extends infinitly into the past

When it comes down to it, you can't have creation without a creator, just as you can't have a painting without a painter.

-phil

 

[fields316_2000]

thats an interesting post..im going to have to really think about that for awhile...i get hit in the head alot

 

[Biarien]

Ok, prepare for a short novel...

--------------

THE PERFECTION-vs.-CREATION ARGUMENT
1.) If God exists, then he is perfect..
2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the
universe.
3.) A perfect being can have no needs or wants.
4.) If any being created the universe, then he must
have had some need or want.
5.) Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to
be the creator of the universe (from 3 and 4).
6.) Hence, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1,
2, and 5).

Faulty assumption in point three. Who says so? Your friend? I don't see how point three is in any way a necessary truth.

PERFECTION/CREATION INCOHERENCE ARGUMENT
1.) God, by definition, is a perfect being.
2.) God, by definition, deliberately created the
universe.
3.) So, if God were to exist, then he would be a
perfect being who deliberately created something.
4.) To be perfect, one cannot have any needs or wants.
5.) To deliberately create something, one must have at
least one need or want.
6.) Thus, it is impossible for a perfect being to
deliberately create anything.
7.) Therefore, God cannot exist.

Again, fault with point four. Or, alternatively, you could say it's a fault with point one, if you don't believe God is perfect, but most Christians don't believe that. Even if point one is a flaw, that doesn't negate that point four is as well. Unless your friend has some compelling reason for stating this.

GOD's omnipresence (ever -present)

ARGUMENT FROM THE SELF
1.) If God exists, he is omnipresent (occupying all
space).
2.) Since God occupies all space, past, present, and
future, there is nothing that is NOT God.
3.) God therefore, cannot have a sense of the
independent self.
4.) Since God has no sense of the self or non-self, he
cannot have a consciousness.
5.) In conclusion, God cannot have a mind and would
resemble nothing more than the non-conscious Universe.

This assumes God is solely within the universe, but as the creator of the universe, it seems He must be outside it (as well, if not instead). Also, this limits God’s power, an idea which many Christians do not hold to, but I think the fault is easier to spot than that.

GOD is omniscience (all knowing)

1 John 3 3:20
in F21 whatever our heart condemns us; for God is
greater than our heart and knows all things.

Omniscience isn’t held to by each and every Christian, or it is but in different limitations of when God knows all things. Just thought I’d throw that in there. *shrugs*

Counter Arguments

ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn’t believe in
him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.

Comments: (Sure you may say I have a choice, but I
think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m
simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist
aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would
have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t
believe in him.)

Fault is with point three. Just because you were born with the foreknowledge of your rejection of God does not mean you had no choice in the matter. This is an argument used by people that want to try to shift the responsibility from themselves, IMO.

ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all knowing)
2.) God knew that before he created man that they
would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden
anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.

Comments: (If God didn`t want sin to enter the world,
why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would
happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in
the first place?)

Fault is with number four. IMO, he placed the tree in the garden because for man to love God, he has to have an alternative. You cannot truly love vanilla ice cream if you’ve never had the opportunity to choose otherwise. There are other ideas as well, such as that it is a part of God’s plan for humans to sin, though I think these are less widely held to.

 

[Biarien]

Why I had no choice arguments

ON MAN'S FREEWILL
1.) God has an unchangeable plan for everything past,
present & future.
2.) Everything that occurs past, present and future
will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3.) Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's
unchanging plan.
4.) Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than
what God has planned.
5.) Free-will doesn't exist.

There are faults in 2, 4, and 5. 3 is only correct because it says “thoughts and actions,” not “every thought and action” (though I suspect he meant the latter). God does have a plan for everything. That does not mean everything that occurs will be a part of God’s plan. This is precisely because we have free will. Obviously, thoughts and actions can be other than what God has planned, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t work for good in them anyway.

FREEWILL ARGUMENT FOR THE NONEXISTENCE OF GOD
1.) The Christian God is a personal being and is
omniscient.
2.) Personal beings have free will.(according to most
Christians)
3.) To have freewill, a personal being must be able to
make a choice.
4.) A being who knows everything can have no "state of
uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
5.) God has no potential to avoid its choices, and
therefore has no free will.
6.) Since a being that lacks free will is not a
personal being, a personal being who knows everything
cannot exist.
7.) Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

Point 4/5 are flawed, because foreknowledge does not mean there was no choice made. Foreknowledge is not fate (in the sense of an inescapable fate).

INFALLIBLE KNOWLEDGE / FREEWILL ARGUMENT
1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the
Universe before it occurs.
2.) God can’t change the future because he knows
everything absolutely.
3.) God has no Free-will.

Foreknowledge doesn’t mean there is no free will.

GOD is unchangeable

Numbers 23 :19
23:19
" God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of
man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He
not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it
good?

ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1.) If God exists, then he is immutable.
2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the
universe.
3.) An immutable being cannot at one time have an
intention and then at a later time not have that
intention.
4.) For any being to create anything, prior to the
creation he must have had the intention to create it,
but at a later time, after the creation, no longer
have the intention to create it.
5.) Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to
have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6.) Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from
1, 2, and 5)

I’m confused as to how he arrived at the conclusion that an aspect of God’s character (in this case, being a creator) cannot have different expressions at different points in time (from our perspective, if not God’s). Or who’s to say that God’s intention is not always the same, such as “I will create the universe at ‘time’ X,” and He always has that intention, even after it has actually been fulfilled? If I said, “I have the intention to post a reply to this thread on March 24, 2004,” and I do, that doesn’t mean that in 25 years my intention has changed. It simply means that the event in time corresponding to that intention has passed.

All Powerfull

Ceds Arguement
Jeremiah 32:17 'Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made
the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by
Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for
You,

Summary
It cleary states that nothing is too difficult for God

Jaiyeson Argument

Question
1) Can god create a boulder so heavy that even God
himself could never lift it?
2) If nothing is to difficult for god then the answer
would be yes
3) There now exist a boulder to difficult for God to
lift
4) Jeremiah 32:17 is a logical error. God is not all
powerfull

However lets say you answer the question with a no.
1) Can god create a boulder so heavy that even God
himself could never lift it?
2) No, because God cannot create something he could
never lift. He would always be able to lift it.
3) There is something to difficult for God. He can
never create something he could never lift. It is
beyond his scope
4) Jeremiah 32:17 is a logical error. God is not all
powerfull

There’s lots of stuff on the “rock paradox.” I’ll post some later.

Counter argument to Jaiyeson with Jaiyeson
counter-counter arguments

1)God would never put itself into that scenatio thus
the scenario would never happen.
1-b) The statement presented in Jeremiah 32:17 allows
the argument to exist.
1-c) If God refused to do it he would acknowledge the
scenarios existence.
1-d) If God said the scenario does not exist. Then
once again God acknowledges the existence of the scenario

How about I just address 1-d. If God acknowledging the non-existence of a scenario makes it exist, then you doubting the existence of God means He must exist as well.

----------

I hope I did a good job answering these. Maybe it'll boost up my rep a bit. ^__^

 

[fields316_2000]

well youve done a great job my friend. thank you very much for your insight. ill pray that these messages sink within his spirit the next time i talk with him!