Acts 21

[bugkiller]

I agree. No one is justified by the law but I'm sure you remember when Paul said that it (the law) wasn't made void.

Oh! Would you please remind us where Paul said such a thing? Thanks.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Ahh, I see. Sorry I misinterpreted you. No, I do not believe Paul made a mistake. I think scripture is clear that Paul followed the Torah his entire life. But, he understood righteousness never came through the law but only through Yeshua. Grace picks up where our flesh causes us to stumble.

I posted this more for the people that say Paul taught Yeshua did away with the law. If that were the case, then Paul would not have felt compelled to show people he still followed it.

Now one is saying Jesus did away with the law. Jesus fulfiled the requirements of the law which no one wlse can do. If one can do this there is no need of redemption and no need of Jesus' sacrifical death. By one man came death and by One Man came life.

What is it about now we are delivered from the law that can not be understood?

What is it about Christ is the end of the law for righteousness that is not undrstood? Is righteousness still required by God? Yes!

Does it come by obedience to the law? No!

Is it maintained by the law? No! How could it be when the law does not give it to start with?

If you want Scripture, just ask.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

?What, then, do YOU think Paul's reasoning was for following the law?

Paul and Peter were both living like Gentiles in Antioch. This means they were not Torah compliant. This is why Paul dressed Peter down for being a hypoctire cusing problems in the Gentile church.

bugkiller

 

[Barraco]

If I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that Paul followed the Law because he lived in Judea and it was the law of the land. And, because I don't "have to", I am now putting myself under a curse?

Yes. The Law is the regulation of the Old Covenant. Those who fail to satisfy the Old Covenant are held accountable by the Law of Moses, hence the curses. Paul was not shy to express this to the Galatians. Neither should I be shy to do so today.

And, do you have a link to something supporting your assertation that the early disciples renounced the Jewishness?

No links. Just Scripture. Revelation 12 is a good place to start.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it." (Revelation 2:17 ESV)

The manna was regarding when the Israelites were waiting for the Promises that God made to Abraham. They were in the wilderness, being a people with no land and no inheritance. There, God fed them with manna. This is shown in Revelation 12 where the elect among Israel (the woman; Genesis 37:9-11) had given birth to her king (Micah 4:9-11) and fled to Judea to live among the Gentiles, going back to the wilderness having no land and no inheritance.

While among the Gentiles, the disciples of Christ were given pardon from affiliation with the Jews because the Jews did not recognize Jesus' disciples as Jews. When the Romans went to war with Judea, the disciples enjoyed immense freedom. That explains the white stone. The were no longer called Jews. They were called by a new name: Christians.

These carried the Gospel to the Gentiles, where it was greatly received. And then the woman is no longer mentioned. This national entity brought forth the offspring of Abraham, the offspring of faith, whom would fill the earth with righteousness. That correlates in the sequence with when the Jewish Nation was destroyed.

One could logically deduce that the disciples of Christ renounces their Jewishness and lived under the title of Christians. Otherwise they would have been harassed and persecuted as a Jew along with the other Jews during and after the war. As Paul stated, their is no benefit in the circumcision of the flesh. It matters more that one is an inward Jew and not an outward Jew. This the hidden manna.

"Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you." (Revelation 3:9 ESV)

Something tells me that the disciples did not display their Jewishness. Thus, they publicly renounced it, counting the flesh as of no value.

That's an awful lot of mental hoops to jump through.

Not really. Many Christians are ignorant to the earliest of Church history as well as the history of the Jews. Many Christians aren't brought up to see Jerusalem's destruction as a major turning point in Covenant history. And often times, their focus is so much on going to heaven that they fail to comprehend from the perspective of the original audiences what exactly the kingdom of God was. And then they are trained to view Scripture as fully loaded but hardly comprehended, preventing them from realizing the historical development of Christian theology. Thus, even things that were not mentioned in the earliest creeds have become foundational doctrines to orthodox Christian belief.

Thus, they don't really even think about what happened after Jesus resurrected. What matters most is that they get to heaven (a latter understanding of the kingdom of God.)

If one wants to understand what the authors meant, he or she needs only to go back to the historical context in which each book was written.

 

[annier]

Acts 21:17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will[c] hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[d] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.


Any takers on why Paul refused to let people think he wasn't keeping the Mosaic Law?

I think the focus of this passage is what Paul was teaching Jews, which were among the Gentiles he preached to.
Yes, I do have some thoughts on why Paul would want to prove he did not teach Jews to not circumcise their children. (ie not keeping the covenant made with their fathers.)
First and foremost, the circumcision of the natural children on the eighth day concerned the covenant made with their father Abraham. This covenant is the foundation for all God's promises made to the natural seed. Mainly, the promise to be their God, and always remeber the land of their inheritance. Since only a remnant was to be saved (from the wrath which was coming, as prophesied in the law those subject to the law) it was vitally important that the Abrahamic covenant be maintained in the Gospel among the Jews. For the law preaches and prophesies both.
Connection to the covenant of blessing and promise made to the fathers.
1. The Apostles to the Jews, were preaching the coming to pass of promises concerning the covenant made with Abraham, in Christ. Wherein only a remnant would be saved from the wrath which John's baptism preached was coming.
2. God may cause his punishments (wrath and curses) to come upon them, But he always remembers his covenant promises made to Abraham.
As is the case today. The natural son's are in their promised inheritance through keeping that covenant.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
The word used for broken here is "loosed". The "circumcision" given by Moses, BOUND the natural sons to the law of Moses.
2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.
3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
Jo 5:4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

 

[Barraco]

I think the focus of this passage is what Paul was teaching Jews, which were among the Gentiles he preached to.
Yes, I do have some thoughts on why Paul would want to prove he did not teach Jews to not circumcise their children. (ie not keeping the covenant made with their fathers.)
First and foremost, the circumcision of the natural children on the eighth day concerned the covenant made with their father Abraham. This covenant is the foundation for all God's promises made to the natural seed. Mainly, the promise to be their God, and always remeber the land of their inheritance. Since only a remnant was to be saved (from the wrath which was coming, as prophesied in the law those subject to the law) it was vitally important that the Abrahamic covenant be maintained in the Gospel among the Jews. For the law preaches and prophesies both.
Connection to the covenant of blessing and promise made to the fathers.
1. The Apostles to the Jews, were preaching the coming to pass of promises concerning the covenant made with Abraham, in Christ. Wherein only a remnant would be saved from the wrath which John's baptism preached was coming.
2. God may cause his punishments (wrath and curses) to come upon them, But he always remembers his covenant promises made to Abraham.
As is the case today. The natural son's are in their promised inheritance through keeping that covenant.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
The word used for broken here is "loosed". The "circumcision" given by Moses, BOUND the natural sons to the law of Moses.
2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.
3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
Jo 5:4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

Very interesting! I noticed the message of John's Baptism as well. The wrath was indeed the curse of the Law, which God enforced on the Jews, starting in 66 CE.

 

[annier]

Very interesting! I noticed the message of John's Baptism as well. The wrath was indeed the curse of the Law, which God enforced on the Jews, starting in 66 CE.

Yes!!!! This is an indication of where my thoughts on this are coming from.

Beginning from the baptism of John......
ac 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
corresponding to these..........
Mt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mr 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Christ took the punishment for us.....
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The result, the promises relized of God's faithfulness to keep his covenant promises.

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

It is intersting to look at the covenant made in the blood of circumcision. It is this covenant God promises to be the God, of Abrahams natural seed. The covenant from which they receive the land. The covenant which the passover sacrifice memorializes. The covenant which the feast of unleavened bread celebrates the fulfillment of the promise to them in the fourth Generation came to pass. There is so much more that rests uin that former covenant, that I think if they were to be all recognized, there is nothing lacking of good things to come (blessings) which a latter covenant provides. Unlike we read in Hebrews of the covenant having weak and beggarly elements.
Therefore the law was not given to provide blessings, but rather given to judge those not walking by faith. This imo is the context in which Paul speaks of the law being not of faith, but of works. The law brings wrath.The covenant of Circumcision is a covenant based upon Abrahams works of faith. God promised him an inheritance. This covenant is about God's faithfulness, to do unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob what he has promised. He keeps it FOR THEM. Christ's works are the works of God.

 

[mrs94]

Very interesting! I noticed the message of John's Baptism as well. The wrath was indeed the curse of the Law, which God enforced on the Jews, starting in 66 CE.

Is it all of Revelation that's already happened, in your view, or just pieces?

 

[Barraco]

Is it all of Revelation that's already happened, in your view, or just pieces?

I believe that half of them were fulfilled before 70 CE and the rest have been being fulfilled since then.

 

[Barraco]

Yes!!!! This is an indication of where my thoughts on this are coming from.

Beginning from the baptism of John......
ac 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
corresponding to these..........
Mt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mr 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Christ took the punishment for us.....
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The result, the promises relized of God's faithfulness to keep his covenant promises.

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

It is intersting to look at the covenant made in the blood of circumcision. It is this covenant God promises to be the God, of Abrahams natural seed. The covenant from which they receive the land. The covenant which the passover sacrifice memorializes. The covenant which the feast of unleavened bread celebrates the fulfillment of the promise to them in the fourth Generation came to pass. There is so much more that rests uin that former covenant, that I think if they were to be all recognized, there is nothing lacking of good things to come (blessings) which a latter covenant provides. Unlike we read in Hebrews of the covenant having weak and beggarly elements.
Therefore the law was not given to provide blessings, but rather given to judge those not walking by faith. This imo is the context in which Paul speaks of the law being not of faith, but of works. The law brings wrath.The covenant of Circumcision is a covenant based upon Abrahams works of faith. God promised him an inheritance. This covenant is about God's faithfulness, to do unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob what he has promised. He keeps it FOR THEM. Christ's works are the works of God.

Well said! So Abraham foreshadowed of Christ. The Jews were kept in the promise made to Abraham through circumcision. The Church is kept in that promise through faith, the circumcision of the heart. Love it!