Acts 2

[Jerrysch]

What did Peter mean on the day of Pentecost when he declared that the day’s phenomena was “that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:14). Does he mean that what happened or began at Pentecost was the complete fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy?
Or does he mean that the spiritual activity of Pentecost was the inauguration of that which was spoken by Joel ? Does Peter mean that “this is the conditional offer of that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel, ? Or does Peter mean “this is that kind of thing spoken of by the prophet Joel?

 

[LukeBritt]

It means that the Scripture is fulfilled in that the Spirit has come.

 

[Dispy]

Peter in Acts 2:15-20 is explaining to his Jewish listeners that the Tribulation has started and the Spirit has come. He is quoting Joel 2:28-32. Joel is speaking of the 70th week of Daniel 9. The signs were beginning to appear.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!

 

[LukeBritt]

I'm not sure if Joel was referring to Daniel 9...
Where do you get that?

 

[Dispy]

I'm not sure if Joel was referring to Daniel 9...
Where do you get that?

From logical deduction.

In Acts 2:16 Peter tells his listeners: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Jeol:
17 And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS..."

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Peter is quoting Joel almost word for word.

Jesus, in Matthew 24 is speaking of many of the same things that Joel prophesied. Jesus there is speaking of the Tribulation, and Great Tribulation.

Daniel in chapter 9:24-27 speaks of that happenings during the Tribulation, the 70th week of years.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

 

[LukeBritt]

By logical deduction you mean dispensational presuppositions, right?

 

[Dispy]

By logical deduction you mean dispensational presuppositions, right?

WRONG, BUT

WOW!!! What insight.



God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[LukeBritt]

Of course you use disp. presuppositions. I use Covenantal presuppositions...

 

[Dispy]

Of course you use disp. presuppositions. I use Covenantal presuppositions...

I really don't know what dispensational presupposition is. It is not a denomination, neither is it a theology. It is just a manner in which one studies the scriptures. Not all dispensationalists agree on every point of doctrine; just as denominational chruches don't agree with each other.

Covenantal believers have to read themselves into the promises to Israel's covenants.

I was reared and educated in the Christian Reformed Church. I was taught and believed that the Chruch was spiritual Israel. We were to inherit all the promises of Israel. They claimed the promises, but didn't want to accept the curses for not following the Law.

They all want to go to heaven. But Israel is not promised a home in heaven. For me to warrant heaven I had to read my Bible every day, confess my sins every night, and live by the 10 commandments. Even though I was a "good boy", tried my best, I knew in my heart I would still not go to heaven because I just wasn't good enough.

I was taught that I had to live all that the Bible demanded. By reading my Bible faithfully every night, I could not figure out how I could do it all. The Bible became a very contradictory book. Being I was taught, and believed, that all the Bible was to me, and not being able to figure out how to do it all, caused me to quit reading the Bible for fear of going crazy.

Also, I kept going to my teachers and pastor to clarify the seemingly contradictions. All I got was church doctrine answers that didn't my questions. When I press for better answers; all I got was: "Well, somethings we have to take by faith."

Yes, I did go to other denominational chruches but had similar results. It was quite funny, or I should say sad, that all claimed that they were scriptural and the other denominations were in error.

Knowing I could not live up to what was expected of me, I gave up and went the way of the world. All because of erroneous teaching.

After going unchurched for about 15 years, one Sunday morning the Lord led me to a small dispensational church where I heard my first dispensational sermon. I had never even heard the word before and didn't even know what it meant.

It was then I learned that all the Bible was FOR ME, but not ALL TO ME. That God gave His instructions in righteousness for Israel to Moses in the Civil, Moral and Civil Laws, and the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ were given Paul. Also learned that Israel had an earthly kingdom to look forward to and members of the Body of Christ had a heavenly hope.

I sat dumbfounded in that sermon because the pastor was answering all the questions of my youth without me asking a question.

That sermon was an overview of the book of the Acts. Most covenantal churchs teach that it is about the growth of the Christian Chruch. Yes, that is somewhat true, but it is more about the setting aside of the nation of Israel and the transition from the dispensation of the Law to the dispensation of grace.

It starts out with Peter the main character at Pentecost, when Israel was under the Law preaching "the gospel of the kingdom." It progresses to Israel, as a nation, rejecting their kingdom promises, by rejecting Peter's offer of the kingdom. Then we find that God raised up Saul/Paul (the self proclaimed chief of sinners) and becoming the main character. Peter was shown that the Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean (making them equal to the set aside Gentiles at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11). Paul was commissioned to go to all mankind, not with the gospel of the kingdom under the Law, BUT with the gospel of the grace of God; apart from the Law.

So what I thought was contradiction was not that at all; but transition from the dispensation of the Law to the dispensation of grace.

I became a dispensationalist that very day and found it a joy to be able to study my Bible with a much better understanding in what I was reading.

I have NEVER HEARD THAT EXPLAINED IN A COVENANTAL SERMON.

I have no presuppositions when I read my Bible. I study it in the context in which it was written and take it literally. Context tell me when it is symbolic.

Glad to hear that you admit that you have Covenantal presuppositions. That explains to me what you write. I once had them too.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[LukeBritt]

I have no presuppositions when I read my Bible.

Are you serious? That's dangerous...

 

[Dispy]

Are you serious? That's dangerous...

Well, I guess I do have a presupposition in that I believe that the Bible is God's Word, and everything that is in it is what He wants me to know, and His will for my life.

You never did explain to me what dispensational presuppostions are. However I do know what covenantal presuppostions are. I was taught them in church and school.

My early years were in a small Dutch (2000+) that had 7 churches. Every one was either Reformed or Christian Reformed. Each one taught their version of the presupposed covenantal doctrine of the man Calvin. Did he teach 7 versions of his doctrine? Or, are they teaching the covenantal doctrine of men?

My father, at one time, was a strong Calvinist. He had two first cousins that were professors at Calvin College. My dad didn't even have a high school education. Even though my dad attended the Wednesday night "men's society" (Bible study), he did a great deal of Bible study at home. He must have forgotten to wear is covenantal eye glasses, because he started to take what he read literally.

Now, if you can think back to prior to 1948, the Reformed/Christian Reformed Churches taught that the Chruch was spiritual Israel, and claimed all Israel's covenantal promises. Through my dad's own personal Bible study he came to the conclusion that Israel would one day again become a nation, and the Reformed Church was not spiritual Israel. He expressed his beliefs at Wednesday night Bible study. It didn't set very well at all. He was called in front of the consistory and told to renounce his views, which he would not. Therefore he was declared a heretic, and excommunicated from the church.

I would say that at one time, in that town of 2000+, my dad was the only one in that town that held his view of Israel. The odds of him being right were 2000+ to 1 that he was wrong. Well, so much for majority views.

On May 14, 1948 Israel became a nation. My father died on May 31, 1948. He did get to see what he believed.

In my search for truth in the many denominational churches I attended, I can now see that they all taught a mixture of Law and Grace. Each one had a little different formula as how to mix it. Therefore, I came to the conclusion that if one mixes Law and Grace, you will end up with confusion and denominations, which I call "scrambled egg doctrines." How does one unscramble an egg? It's tough!

The Bible is one book but it contains two primary doctrines - Law and Grace. When you mix them you get, as I said, confusions and denominations.

The egg itself is one unit, however, inside it contains two parts. A clear liquid (white) and a yellow yoke. You can cook the two parts at one time and still keep the two elements seperate, or you can scramble them.

My preference for studying the Bible is to study each part separate as to what they actually are and to whom addressed. It appears to me that denominational churches scramble the two doctrines and come up with their own formula for their "omlet" (doctrine) which they feed their people.

The views I have just expressed are not "presupposed," but came about from observation and study.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Dave Taylor]

On May 14, 1948 Israel became a nation.

On May 14, 1948; a country was formed in the middle east that chose to take the name 'Israel'.

However, this had nothing to do with the providence of God.

The modern-day popular view of Zionism is just another ploy of the devil to keep people from following and trusting and accepting Jesus Christ....just another 'idol' to give glory and honor and worship too; instead of giving it to Christ who alone merits it. Sad that many Christians, because of Zionism and its effects on the Dispensational model; have chosen to ignore the fact that Christ is being mocked, spit on, rejected, and despised all over again, by a modern-day country that utterly denies and refutes Him.

Many would rather stand and support a pagan country and excuse the fact that they reject Jesus Christ; than to stand with Jesus Christ; and require of them to follow Him before they adorn them with label's like "God's Chosen" and "the people of God".

That 1948-born country; its government, and the mass bulk of its population; is in complete rejection of God; and has continued to be in rejection and disobedience with God.

The modern state of Israel is no more chosen or beloved or special in the eyes of God than wicked Edom, Philistia, or Babylon of old....for they all reject the Lord and His Christ. The modern state of Israel is no different now than the Pharisees of the 1st century that Jesus called vipers because of their rejection of Him.

To claim that they fulfill prophecy and scripture is absurd; solely because they took upon the name 'Israel'; as their label.

Had the country reformed in 1948 and followed the teachings of the Bible; then you might have arguement that it was a doing of God.

Here is what God has to say, via the Bible; with the modern state of 'Israel'.

Luke 9:26
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."

Matthew 21:42
"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them."

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Matthew 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father"

I John 5:10 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar"


2 John 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God."

The Modern state of Israel calls God a liar, and hath not God; according to the scriptures. Their formation as a country is completely secular and they still reject Christ, as did their Pharisee Viper ancestors.

But then again, God isn't calling governmental nations or political groups anyway....He is calling out individuals; from every tongue, tribe, and people...into one holy nation; the Body of Christ; containing the redeemed of all ages united in victory under the shed blood of Christ.

The 'holy nation' that 1 Peter 2 spoke of that is comprised of lively stones acceptible to God by Jesus Christ; is the only 'nation' on the earth that God endorses.

Our focus should be on Christ, and His gospel, and its outreach....not modern pagan political states that take upon themselves the names of ancient kingdoms.

Christ is all.

 

[LukeBritt]

Dispensational Presuppositions:
- Every text is to be taken literally
- Every promise to ethnic Israel must be fulfilled to Israel
- Ethnic Israel is still God's chosen nation.


These are just a few I see...

 

[Dispy]

Dispensational Presuppositions:
- Every text is to be taken literally
- Every promise to ethnic Israel must be fulfilled to Israel
- Ethnic Israel is still God's chosen nation.

These are just a few I see...

As a non-denominational dispensationalist there is nothing that says that I must view every text literally.

As a non-denominational dispensationalist there is nothing that says that I must take every promise to ethnic Israel and believe it must be fulfilled to Isreal.

As a non-denominational dispensationalist there is nothing that says that I have to believe ethnic Israel is still God's chosen nation.

If a dispensationalist does, or doesn't believe those things, it is because they have found them to be true/false from their study of the Bible.

Those things ARE NOT presupposed as you imagine.

The church I attend is a non-denominational church. It is a body of like-minded believers and the Bible is taught from a dispensational viewpoint. However, we do not have an official church membership roll, so therefore, I have no "party line" to follow, and cannot be excommunicated over any matter in which I disagree with our pastor or board members.

I am not saying that we always agree on every interpretation of scripture under discussion. Those things that we do not all agree with in their interpretation are openly discussed in Christian love. We all gain from open discussion in those matters. I will admit that I have even changed my views or learned from what other presented.

At least I will not be required to go in from of some "consistory" to examine my beliefs, and if not found to comply with some church false teaching, be declared a heritic, and excommunicated.

Luke, I know you don't believe as I do, but you have given me no reason for changing my views by showing me where they are wrong. You don't even explain what you actually believe.

I still have family members in the Reformed Church. In fact one of my sisters was in my home yesterday and we did discuss our beliefs.

She is a "spiritual" Jew claims Israel's promises. However, she plans on going to heaven and not go into an earthly kingdom. She can't explain why she believes that.

Isreal must go through the Tribulation. But, if alive, she believes she will be raptured before the Tribulation starts. Can't expain that either. She just believes that.

When I asked her what benefits she has as being a spiritual Jew when the Jews are in a set aside condition, and on equal ground with the set aside Gentiles, she just has a blank look on her face.

Maybe you can figure that all out, but I just can't.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[LukeBritt]

To say you don't have presuppositions is to say you don't have anything affect your Bible Study. I'm not sure that anyone can say this...

I have a presupposition...
I look to see Christ the center of all Scripture.

 

[Dave Taylor]

I will be honest and admit also, that I have a presupposition too...

I won't take scriptural figures and patterns from the OT that were figures and patterns that had at their intent and ultimate context; future fulfillment in Jesus Christ (as explained by the New Testament);

...and attempt to misapply them (as the Pharisees did), to a ethnic, nationalistic pagan group who is ashamed of, rejects, and denys Jesus Christ; and thereby rejects the LORD God Almighty of the Bible by rejecting His son.

 

[Dispy]

Luke and Dave:

In my early years I too had presuppostions when I read the Bible. They were derived from what I was taught at home, school, Sunday School, and Chruch. When I read my Bible daily, during those times, I tried to make everything I was taught, believed and wanted to believe into what I was reading. The more I read the more confused I got. There wasn't anyone around that could eleviate my confusion.

My search for truth in other denominations didn't help me either. It was then I gave up on all churches. Hate to admit this, but I even looked into eastern religions in search of truth.

Having given up on all churches, gave up reading my Bible for fear of going crazy, and just going the way of the world; rid me of any presuppositions I had as to what was truth.

When I was shown that all sciripture was FOR ME and not TO, I then found that the Bible became much more understandable. It only became more understandable because I no longer had any presuppositions.

I always believed there was a Higher Being (God) that created the universe, and that there was a purpose for life. If you consider that a presupposition, then I am guilty. It was the the church and shool I attended that screwed up my head; primarily because I wanted to know how what I was being taught fit into what I was reading, and they couldn't give me answers.

My answers came one Sunday morning in 1964, and I didn't even have to ask one question. Oh, how I thank God for Pastor, C.R. Stam, founder and past president the the Berean Bible Society, who was filling in at a small church that didn't have a pastor at that time. I feel so privaledged to have gotten to know him personally.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[LukeBritt]

Your presupposition is that you don't have presuppositions...

 

[Dispy]

Your presupposition is that you don't have presuppositions...

AMEN!!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Dave Taylor]

You can't say AMEN!! either....that would be a postsupposition...