Acts 15:21 is often misused and misunderstood. A no spin zone thread!

Netzari777 · May 29, 2015

Frogster said:
Acts 15:21 for from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

People try to Act like Acts 15:21, meant that Gentile converts to Christianity, were to go to the synagogues, to learn the law. That is incorrect, big time!

Why would Paul want the disciples in the synagogues, where Judaism was taught, after going to Jerusalem to fight off Judaism? Would that make sense?

Why would Paul want his converts near the Jews in the synagogues who plotted against Paul, Acts 20:19, and would try to Judaize the church, while antagonizing Paul by that act, the very thing Paul did not want? Why put the disciples in hostile territory? Since the Jews plotted against Paul, why wouldn’t they seek to get his children? What a perfect trap, have Paul’s disciples in a synagogue, on the turf of Paul’s opponents. Why would Paul want that?!

Why would he want them near the persecutory zealots, who gathered in the synagogues, and forced circumcision, the very thing Paul fought in Acts 15, and in Galatia? Talk about a bad environment.

Why on the way to the meeting in Acts 15, did Paul and crew stop at churches, not synagogues to see Christians, and likewise after the meeting he went to churches, not synagogues to see Christians? Why did the church, send them? Christians were not in the synagogues, they were in churches, especially by 49 AD.

Why were Paul and crew glad that the council said, no circumcision, which would have bound the church to Sabbath, food laws, and feasts? "Gal 5:3, if circumcised, keep the whole law". To keep Passover one had to be Jewish, said the law.

Exodus 12:43-48 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, 44 but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. 45 No foreigner or hired servant may eat of it. 46 It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones. 47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

So the council was saying, no feasts, food stuff, or Sabbath for the churches. It even says Sabbath in 15:21, so if the council wanted Sabbath and the whole law for the churches, they would have said they have to be circumcised. Did they want them to keep feasts? No, because they did not follow the law quoted above and have the church get circumcised.

Gee, what would those in the zealot filled, Paul’s opponent filled, proselytizer filled, synagogues think of that? “Oh yes, welcome aboard uncircumcised ones”! lol…

The synagogue leaders opened up Paul's back whipping him on 5 different occasions, 39 (40 minus one) times, as per 2 Cor 11. They would not want Paul’s Jesus praising gentiles in their synagogues, they did not like Paul, look how they tried to tear him apart in Acts 21 at the temple, the synagogues were where the unsaved Jews were, Paul's opponents and enemies, it was 49 AD.

2 Corinthians 11:24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.

One more point, to an unsaved Jewish person, being a Christian was basically saying, the Jews killed the Messiah, and they were wrong. So how would a Christian fit in a Jewish synagogue? They would just be a testimony against the Jews. Oh my, how uncomfortable!

All James was saying in Acts 15:21, don't freak out the Jewish Christians, all they knew for centuries was the law, this was a transitional period. Jew and Greek were becoming one body, so there would be tensions.

Case closed!

Thanks, froggy.

When I read things like this I am truly astonished.

#1 The Gentiles who converted joined congregations of Jewish believers. Almost ALL of the believers in Messiah for the first 15 years after the resurrection were Jews. Paul's first missionary journey did not happen until around 45CE. “Christianity” was a Jewish phenomenon.

#2 The entire topic of discussion in Acts 15 was “salvation.” The men from Judea said “if you are not circumcised, you cannot be saved.” Uncircumcised Gentiles could not sit in the same room as the Jews. A “wall of partition” separated them. It is this wall to which Paul refers in Ephesians. Circumcision was not done unless you already proved you knew Torah and observed it. The argument was about "salvation," not behavior after the fact.

#3 Paul stopped at “ekklesia.” This word, G1677 in Strong's, specifically mentions “synagogue” as one of its definitions. Likewise, a “synagogue,” G4864, could be only Christians. Both words basically mean “assembly.”

#4 Are you bound to Sunday, Christmas, Easter and the fact that you don't eat dogs or horses? What makes you think observing the Creator's calendar binds you to something? In Leviticus 23:2, YHWH says they are HIS feasts. They are not Jewish feasts. They are HIS. I think it truly sad that Christians will claim the Old Testament is full of prophecies about the Messiah, yet believe that the Creator of the Universe was not smart enough to include his feasts as Messianic prophecy.

The Messiah was born on the feast of Tabernacles.
He was circumcised on the last great day of that feast.
He was crucified on Passover.
The Torah was given to Moses on the feast of weeks. Christianity calls that Pentecost. Oh, that's the day the Holy Spirit came...
The gathering will happen on Yom Teruah, the wrath of YHWH will be poured out on the day of atonement, the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs on the feast of tabernacles, and on the last great day, Messiah returns with his saints to take back the earth. The cycle continues...

#5 --- 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Torah. The definition of sin is disobeying the Torah.

#6 To keep the Passover, one did not have to be Jewish. They had to be circumcised. Completely different.

===================================

The Gentiles were being told to come to the assemblies to hear the Torah. They didn't have to know the Torah to be saved. But, once they accepted the Messiah, they should learn it.

Jesus said to.......

Matt 5:19

Luke 24:44

Case closed!

Frogster · May 29, 2015

Lulav said:
You proved it yourself that Gentiles were in the synagogues.

In the ancient Roman world, Gentile God-fearers were present in synagogues and were a source of many early Christian converts. There is no reason to think that Paul's gentiles, now that they've made the incredible commitment to the God of Israel by not worshiping their own gods anymore, would stop going to the synagogue and listening to the Bible.
Judaism was popular enough that Juvenal* satirized Roman citizens for keeping the Sabbath, food laws, and other Jewish practices. Centuries later, John Chrysostom gave sermons against Christians attending both church and synagogue, providing evidence for the popularity of the practice. Chrysostom and others dissuaded Christians from praying with Jews by outlawing the practice and by espousing a teaching of contempt for Jews and Judaism. This teaching has in recent years been repudiated by the Roman Catholic church and several Protestant bodies, yet much estrangement still exists.

* A Roman satirical poet writing in the late 1st century into the early second century.

ahaaaaaa...I know about God-fearers, I know about proselytes, but the Christian Gentiles were not in the synagogues , prove me wrong...

Frogster · May 29, 2015

Lulav said:
Didn't you also quote this:

Gosh, I know that Jews came to the Lord! But stop acting like most Jews were not in hostility to the gentiles! It was because of the law, that was the enmity, Eph 2:15.

But fact is, as soon as Paul said "gentile" in Acts 22, that was it, kill Paul, they thought.

Look at how Paul shows the negative view Jews had towards gentiles. It was all because of the law...oh well, such is Bible life, hmmmmm

1 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

Frogster · May 29, 2015

Netzari777 said:
When I read things like this I am truly astonished.

#1 The Gentiles who converted joined congregations of Jewish believers. Almost ALL of the believers in Messiah for the first 15 years after the resurrection were Jews. Paul's first missionary journey did not happen until around 45CE. “Christianity” was a Jewish phenomenon.

#2 The entire topic of discussion in Acts 15 was “salvation.” The men from Judea said “if you are not circumcised, you cannot be saved.” Uncircumcised Gentiles could not sit in the same room as the Jews. A “wall of partition” separated them. It is this wall to which Paul refers in Ephesians. Circumcision was not done unless you already proved you knew Torah and observed it. The argument was about "salvation," not behavior after the fact.

#3 Paul stopped at “ekklesia.” This word, G1677 in Strong's, specifically mentions “synagogue” as one of its definitions. Likewise, a “synagogue,” G4864, could be only Christians. Both words basically mean “assembly.”

#4 Are you bound to Sunday, Christmas, Easter and the fact that you don't eat dogs or horses? What makes you think observing the Creator's calendar binds you to something? In Leviticus 23:2, YHWH says they are HIS feasts. They are not Jewish feasts. They are HIS. I think it truly sad that Christians will claim the Old Testament is full of prophecies about the Messiah, yet believe that the Creator of the Universe was not smart enough to include his feasts as Messianic prophecy.

The Messiah was born on the feast of Tabernacles.
He was circumcised on the last great day of that feast.
He was crucified on Passover.
The Torah was given to Moses on the feast of weeks. Christianity calls that Pentecost. Oh, that's the day the Holy Spirit came...
The gathering will happen on Yom Teruah, the wrath of YHWH will be poured out on the day of atonement, the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs on the feast of tabernacles, and on the last great day, Messiah returns with his saints to take back the earth. The cycle continues...

#5 --- 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Torah. The definition of sin is disobeying the Torah.

#6 To keep the Passover, one did not have to be Jewish. They had to be circumcised. Completely different.

===================================

The Gentiles were being told to come to the assemblies to hear the Torah. They didn't have to know the Torah to be saved. But, once they accepted the Messiah, they should learn it.

Jesus said to.......

Matt 5:19

Luke 24:44

Case closed!

red above, you're wrong in Acts 11, there were jews and greeks, in the church, and that was not 15 years later! Gosh the council meeting of Acts 15, was in 49 AD, let alone Acts 11 was much earlier. please!

bro...no way would Paul want his disciples in synagogues! study the OP please, thanks!

Frogster · May 29, 2015

Netzari777 said:
When I read things like this I am truly astonished.

#1 The Gentiles who converted joined congregations of Jewish believers. Almost ALL of the believers in Messiah for the first 15 years after the resurrection were Jews. Paul's first missionary journey did not happen until around 45CE. “Christianity” was a Jewish phenomenon.

#2 The entire topic of discussion in Acts 15 was “salvation.” The men from Judea said “if you are not circumcised, you cannot be saved.” Uncircumcised Gentiles could not sit in the same room as the Jews. A “wall of partition” separated them. It is this wall to which Paul refers in Ephesians. Circumcision was not done unless you already proved you knew Torah and observed it. The argument was about "salvation," not behavior after the fact.

#3 Paul stopped at “ekklesia.” This word, G1677 in Strong's, specifically mentions “synagogue” as one of its definitions. Likewise, a “synagogue,” G4864, could be only Christians. Both words basically mean “assembly.”

#4 Are you bound to Sunday, Christmas, Easter and the fact that you don't eat dogs or horses? What makes you think observing the Creator's calendar binds you to something? In Leviticus 23:2, YHWH says they are HIS feasts. They are not Jewish feasts. They are HIS. I think it truly sad that Christians will claim the Old Testament is full of prophecies about the Messiah, yet believe that the Creator of the Universe was not smart enough to include his feasts as Messianic prophecy.

The Messiah was born on the feast of Tabernacles.
He was circumcised on the last great day of that feast.
He was crucified on Passover.
The Torah was given to Moses on the feast of weeks. Christianity calls that Pentecost. Oh, that's the day the Holy Spirit came...
The gathering will happen on Yom Teruah, the wrath of YHWH will be poured out on the day of atonement, the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs on the feast of tabernacles, and on the last great day, Messiah returns with his saints to take back the earth. The cycle continues...

#5 --- 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Torah. The definition of sin is disobeying the Torah.

#6 To keep the Passover, one did not have to be Jewish. They had to be circumcised. Completely different.

===================================

The Gentiles were being told to come to the assemblies to hear the Torah. They didn't have to know the Torah to be saved. But, once they accepted the Messiah, they should learn it.

Jesus said to.......

Matt 5:19

Luke 24:44

Case closed!

red above, the wall was the law.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

Lulav · May 29, 2015

Frogster said:
Gosh, I know that Jews came to the Lord! But stop acting like most Jews were not in hostility to the gentiles! It was because of the law, that was the enmity, Eph 2:15.

But fact is, as soon as Paul said "gentile" in Acts 22, that was it, kill Paul, they thought.

Look at how Paul shows the negative view Jews had towards gentiles. It was all because of the law...oh well, such is Bible life, hmmmmm

1 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

There should have been a negative view, they were heathens,, the ones they were around for the most part were as ungodly as you could get. The Romans and others part of the Roman army were defiling the land and even had encroached on the temple area.

What makes you so sure it was the word gentile that set them off? I think it was something much different.

The law was not enmity between Jews and heathens it was the sin that separated them and also don't forget that the L-RD God himself told them to keep separate.

Lulav · May 29, 2015

Frogster said:
ahaaaaaa...I know about God-fearers, I know about proselytes, but the Christian Gentiles were not in the synagogues , prove me wrong...

If you actually read my post , then you know I already did.

Frogster · May 29, 2015

Lulav said:
There should have been a negative view, they were heathens,, the ones they were around for the most part were as ungodly as you could get. The Romans and others part of the Roman army were defiling the land and even had encroached on the temple area.

Rom 3, jews and greeks wee both under sin, so it is the same thing.

What makes you so sure it was the word gentile that set them off? I think it was something much different.

The law was not enmity between Jews and heathens it was the sin that separated them and also don't forget that the L-RD God himself told them to keep separate.

It was the law, that was the enmity/hostility, that had to go, to make the one new man.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Well, what other word set them off but???

21 And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Paul and the Roman Tribune
22 Up to this word they listened to him. Then they raised their voices and said, “Away with such a fellow from the earth! For he should not be allowed to live.”[/QUOTE]

Frogster · May 29, 2015

Lulav said:
If you actually read my post , then you know I already did.

no, please show Christian gentiles, especially by 49 AD, as per the verse.

Netzari777 · May 30, 2015

Frogster said:
red above, the wall was the law.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

The “law of commandments expressed in ordinances” is NOT the Torah. It is the MAN-MADE divider between Jews and Gentiles. “Ordinances” is dogma. Dogma is the rules that men make to try to control people. At NO TIME in history did the Torah create a division between believers who were Israeli by birth or strangers.

Exodus 12:19, 12:42-49, 20:10, 23:12
Leviticus 16:29, 17:8-15
ALL of Leviticus 18
Leviticus 19:34, 20:2
Numbers 9:14, 15:14-30, 19:10
Deuteronomy 16:11-14 and 31:12

All say that strangers who accept the God of Israel should keep Torah.

Again, ignoring the language, context and history is necessary to bolster your doctrinal agenda. It is hilarious that anything you read that is negative automatically becomes “the law.” Words actually have meaning. And, changing the meaning of words to suit your doctrine is EXACTLY what Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3:16. Unlearned people twist Paul's words.

So, let's examine Ephesians 2.

Verses 1-10 You used to be sinners. But, YHWH has provided the ultimate sin sacrifice so that you can walk in his grace. Yeshua has risen from the dead and we are risen with Him. We now have the right to join the people of YHWH.

Verses 11-22 In the past, you were Gentiles. You were strangers. You were not part of Israel. But, now you are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:13-26). The wall that separated you from Israel is gone. He has made us one people. We are no longer strangers. We are no longer Gentiles. We are the Israel of YHWH.

Frogster · May 30, 2015

Netzari777 said:
The “law of commandments expressed in ordinances” is NOT the Torah. It is the MAN-MADE divider between Jews and Gentiles. “Ordinances” is dogma. Dogma is the rules that men make to try to control people. At NO TIME in history did the Torah create a division between believers who were Israeli by birth or strangers.

Exodus 12:19, 12:42-49, 20:10, 23:12
Leviticus 16:29, 17:8-15
ALL of Leviticus 18
Leviticus 19:34, 20:2
Numbers 9:14, 15:14-30, 19:10
Deuteronomy 16:11-14 and 31:12

All say that strangers who accept the God of Israel should keep Torah.

Again, ignoring the language, context and history is necessary to bolster your doctrinal agenda. It is hilarious that anything you read that is negative automatically becomes “the law.” Words actually have meaning. And, changing the meaning of words to suit your doctrine is EXACTLY what Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3:16. Unlearned people twist Paul's words.

So, let's examine Ephesians 2.

Verses 1-10 You used to be sinners. But, YHWH has provided the ultimate sin sacrifice so that you can walk in his grace. Yeshua has risen from the dead and we are risen with Him. We now have the right to join the people of YHWH.

Verses 11-22 In the past, you were Gentiles. You were strangers. You were not part of Israel. But, now you are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:13-26). The wall that separated you from Israel is gone. He has made us one people. We are no longer strangers. We are no longer Gentiles. We are the Israel of YHWH.

It was the torah.That DID create the enmity, it says so, you are wrong.

Read my thread..here>>>

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/eph-2-15-law-abolishment-not-oral-law-a-no-spin-zone.7879228/

Frogster · May 30, 2015

Netzari777 said:
The “law of commandments expressed in ordinances” is NOT the Torah. It is the MAN-MADE divider between Jews and Gentiles. “Ordinances” is dogma. Dogma is the rules that men make to try to control people. At NO TIME in history did the Torah create a division between believers who were Israeli by birth or strangers.

Exodus 12:19, 12:42-49, 20:10, 23:12
Leviticus 16:29, 17:8-15
ALL of Leviticus 18
Leviticus 19:34, 20:2
Numbers 9:14, 15:14-30, 19:10
Deuteronomy 16:11-14 and 31:12

All say that strangers who accept the God of Israel should keep Torah.

Again, ignoring the language, context and history is necessary to bolster your doctrinal agenda. It is hilarious that anything you read that is negative automatically becomes “the law.” Words actually have meaning. And, changing the meaning of words to suit your doctrine is EXACTLY what Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3:16. Unlearned people twist Paul's words.

So, let's examine Ephesians 2.

Verses 1-10 You used to be sinners. But, YHWH has provided the ultimate sin sacrifice so that you can walk in his grace. Yeshua has risen from the dead and we are risen with Him. We now have the right to join the people of YHWH.

Verses 11-22 In the past, you were Gentiles. You were strangers. You were not part of Israel. But, now you are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:13-26). The wall that separated you from Israel is gone. He has made us one people. We are no longer strangers. We are no longer Gentiles. We are the Israel of YHWH.

Red above, you say man made, so the blood of the cross was for man made laws in Eph 2:13? No way, that is an insult to the Lord! Also, it says we were reconciled to God AFTER the abolishment, in 2:16. Are you saying we were reconciled TO GOD because of the abolishment of oral law? No way!

It says we were dead in sins and trespasses in Eph 2, were we dead in MAN MADE laws? No way, Paul was about THE LAW in Eph 2.

it is easier for you to just read mt Eph 2;15 thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/eph-2-15-law-abolishment-not-oral-law-a-no-spin-zone.7879228/

Netzari777 · May 30, 2015

Frogster said:
red above, you're wrong in Acts 11, there were jews and greeks, in the church, and that was not 15 years later! Gosh the council meeting of Acts 15, was in 49 AD, let alone Acts 11 was much earlier. please!

bro...no way would Paul want his disciples in synagogues! study the OP please, thanks!

Yea. Acts 11 was much earlier: 4 or 5 years earlier. So, for the first 10 years, almost ALL the believers were Jews. The congregations of Jewish believers did not build new buildings. They had assemblies of Jewish believers in the same synagogues they used before Yeshua arrived on the scene. As I said before, the words ekklesia and synagogue have virtually the same meaning.

The 3,000 souls added to the “church” in Acts 2 were all Jews. They were gathered for the celebration of the Feast of Weeks. Jews call it Shavu'ot. You know it as the day of Pentecost, i.e., the 50th day after the Sabbath of Passover week. (Leviticus 23:15-21)

Religious Jews did not make a regular practice of hanging out with non-Jews. Acts 10:28

“Greeks” are not Gentiles. Greeks refers to the Hellenized Jews. Throughout the region, many Jews had adopted Greek culture. They had lost touch with their Hebrew roots. Unlike the religious Jews of the time, who continued to speak Hebrew, these Jews had adopted the language and culture of the occupying nation. They are the lost sheep. That is why Paul's guard was surprised when he asked a question in Greek. He then addressed the crowd in Hebrew. Acts 21:37-40

Netzari777 · May 30, 2015

Frogster said:
Red above, you say man made, so the blood of the cross was for man made laws in Eph 2:13? No way, that is an insult to the Lord! Also, it says we were reconciled to God AFTER the abolishment, in 2:16. Are you saying we were reconciled TO GOD because of the abolishment of oral law? No way!

It says we were dead in sins and trespasses in Eph 2, were we dead in MAN MADE laws? No way, Paul was about THE LAW in Eph 2.

it is easier for you to just read mt Eph 2;15 thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/eph-2-15-law-abolishment-not-oral-law-a-no-spin-zone.7879228/

1 John 3:4 How could sin be defined as something that has been abolished?

Netzari777 · May 30, 2015

Frogster said:
It was the torah.That DID create the enmity, it says so, you are wrong.

Read my thread..here>>>

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/eph-2-15-law-abolishment-not-oral-law-a-no-spin-zone.7879228/

You choose whatever you wish.
Deuteronomy 11:1-5 Any prophet who tells you not to keep the Commandments should be killed.
Matthew 5:19 Do and teach the Torah and you will be called great.

Frogster · May 30, 2015

Netzari777 said:
Yea. Acts 11 was much earlier: 4 or 5 years earlier. So, for the first 10 years, almost ALL the believers were Jews. The congregations of Jewish believers did not build new buildings. They had assemblies of Jewish believers in the same synagogues they used before Yeshua arrived on the scene. As I said before, the words ekklesia and synagogue have virtually the same meaning.

The 3,000 souls added to the “church” in Acts 2 were all Jews. They were gathered for the celebration of the Feast of Weeks. Jews call it Shavu'ot. You know it as the day of Pentecost, i.e., the 50th day after the Sabbath of Passover week. (Leviticus 23:15-21)

Religious Jews did not make a regular practice of hanging out with non-Jews. Acts 10:28

“Greeks” are not Gentiles. Greeks refers to the Hellenized Jews. Throughout the region, many Jews had adopted Greek culture. They had lost touch with their Hebrew roots. Unlike the religious Jews of the time, who continued to speak Hebrew, these Jews had adopted the language and culture of the occupying nation. They are the lost sheep. That is why Paul's guard was surprised when he asked a question in Greek. He then addressed the crowd in Hebrew. Acts 21:37-40

They also met in houses, and the persecution that came in Acts 8 was early, synagogues were now hostile territory for Jesus praising Christians.

In Acts 22 Paul was smart to use Hebrew at the temple, they wanted to kill him over a gentile, so he was trying to talk, and have calm, it worked at first..

22 “Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you.”
2 And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew language,a they became even more quiet. And he said:

However in 22:22, the gentile word got the crowd going again to kill paul

Frogster · May 30, 2015

Netzari777 said:
1 John 3:4 How could sin be defined as something that has been abolished?

Why does John mention just 2 laws in 1 John 3:23?

There are several abolishment verses.

Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross

Netzari777 · May 31, 2015

Frogster said:
They also met in houses, and the persecution that came in Acts 8 was early, synagogues were now hostile territory for Jesus praising Christians.

In Acts 22 Paul was smart to use Hebrew at the temple, they wanted to kill him over a gentile, so he was trying to talk, and have calm, it worked at first..

22 “Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you.”
2 And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew language,a they became even more quiet. And he said:

However in 22:22, the gentile word got the crowd going again to kill paul

Yea, saying the word Gentile is what upset them...

I guess even the context of a single sentence has no value in your world, much less what is actually going on. That's pretty scary.

Netzari777 · May 31, 2015

Frogster said:
Why does John mention just 2 laws in 1 John 3:23?

There are several abolishment verses.

Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross

You are now engaging in some of the worst cherry-picking of verses I have ever witnessed, demonstrating that you have no clue what you are talking about. Try reading 10 or 15 verses before and after the single, conveniently-numbered sound bites you cite. Understanding them in the context of the message will, in every case, prove that you don't understand anything about them.

=====================
Hebrews 7:18 The law says the all high priests are to come from the descendants of Aaron. However, we now have a high priest that is from the timeless order of Melchisedek. The weakness of men made it necessary that the Levitical priesthood be supplanted by a sinless high priest. Of course, the priesthood of Melchisedek is actually older, but that is another discussion entirely.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

Hebrews 10:9 The first system of sacrifice for sin was the blood of bulls and goats. This first system was merely a place holder for the second system of sacrifice, which was the Messiah. Now that the second one has come, we don't need to rely on the first.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

2 Corinthians 3:13 The perfect law of YHWH is so glorious that Moses literally glowed when he received it. He had to cover his face with a veil so that the people could talk to him. The letter of the Law written in stone required the death of the violator. The Messiah has paid that price. We can now walk in the light of the Torah without condemnation. This new system is even more glorious than the old one. We can have all the benefits of obedience without the fear of the curse of the Law.
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 If you obey I will bless you. If you disobey I will curse you.
Galatians 3:8-14 YHWH knew in advance that he would redeem us from the curse of the Law so that we could receive the blessing of Abraham. The blessing comes from obeying his commandments. The curse is gone, but why not receive the blessing?
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

Ephesians 2:15 We've gone over this. The Torah did not distinguish between Israel and the stranger who believed. The only distinction that kept them apart was man-made. The Greek word used here is dogma. The Pharisees amplified it by adding to the Torah. Paul is trying to reassure these people that any distinction that anyone tries to make has been broken down by the Messiah. That is the unifying effect of the Messiah's work. That is why Paul was sending them to synagogues to join congregations of Jewish believers in the Messiah. Messiah has made one new man out of two groups of people.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

Colossians 2:14 This one of your worst cherry-picking examples, and one that especially shows a failure to even compare it to the last thing you cited. To begin, "ordinances" is dogma. "Nomos" is the Torah. Dogma is used with regard to man-made civil law or the religious laws of the pagans. But, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt, the Torah is not against us! David says the Torah is a lamp to his feet, the thing that makes him wiser than his enemies and his delight. How could something that shows you where to walk, makes you wise and is a delight be against you? It can't be. EXCEPT, if you do not obey it. But, let's go on...
Verses 16 and 17: the most abused verses in the entire Bible!
Through the entire chapter Paul has been warning them not to be judged by the pagans. And now he says , "don't let them judge you because you keep the Sabbath, the feasts of YHWH and his dietary laws." How do we know this is what he means? Because he says they are a shadow of things to come. The Sabbath and the feasts illustrate YHWH's plan of salvation! 2 Peter 3:8 The day of rest is the thousand year reign of the Messiah. IT IS THE 7TH MILLENIUM Any day picked by men CANNOT BE a shadow of things to come, because only YHWH's calendar is true.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, THE BOOKS OF MOSES AND PSALM 119

It is time to put away the milk and get some meat.

You seem to think Jesus was lying when He said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." And, before you add "He fulfilled the Law so I don't have to..." offer ANY other literary context where fulfilling means abolishing. Can't be done.

BobRyan · May 31, 2015

Frogster said:
Acts 15:21 for from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

People try to Act like Acts 15:21, meant that Gentile converts to Christianity, were to go to the synagogues, to learn the law. That is incorrect, big time!

Why would Paul want the disciples in the synagogues, where Judaism was taught, after going to Jerusalem to fight off Judaism? Would that make sense?

James points out that the Christians are in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing scripture - Paul is not making that point in Acts 15 -- James is.

Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
...13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

=======================

The book of Acts shows both Jews AND Gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing scripture --

in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18.

This fact does not escape James' notice by way of helping with the "solution" in Acts 15.

in Christ,

Bob

Acts 15:21 is often misused and misunderstood. A no spin zone thread!

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