Acts 10 Controversy

Charlesinflorida · Mar 30, 2004

Hix,

You are correct that the mercy and enduring love of Adonai would call Israel back. But did he really dicorce here? In your examples, no, he waited anxiously for her return even though she had played the harlot. Yet he like Hosea, did not divorce her, but went after here night after night to bring her home unto himself.

CIF

Toney · Mar 30, 2004

Charlesinflorida said:
Hix,

You are correct that the mercy and enduring love of Adonai would call Israel back. But did he really dicorce here? In your examples, no, he waited anxiously for her return even though she had played the harlot. Yet he like Hosea, did not divorce her, but went after here night after night to bring her home unto himself.

CIF

Charles, This is such a wonderful example of Adonai's love. Hosea and Gomer had three children, the youngest was named Lo-Ammi, 'not my people.' Her older sister was Lo-Ruhamah, 'unloved.'

Thank you.

Charlesinflorida · Mar 30, 2004

Toney said:
Charles, This is such a wonderful example of Adonai's love. Hosea and Gomer had three children, the youngest was named Lo-Ammi, 'not my people.' Her older sister was Lo-Ruhamah, 'unloved.'

Thank you.

Bless you Toney,

Now where are those Gentiles? Joseph had a wife from Egypt, a Pagan woman, daughter of a Pagan priest. And two sons were born to them, Ephraim and Menassah. And Jacob too these two upon his knee and adopted them making them sons and not just grandsons. By Jewish halacha, they would not be considered Jewish at all, But Elohim sees things with different eyes.

God chooses us by what he sees in our hearts not what is resedent in our genes, in my opinion. Abraham was not a Jew, but a Gentile, and he knew God was, and God saw that aith and counted it in his behalf and made great nations out of him. And God ave him the credit, made the covenant before he circumcised him, and long beore the law would come through moshe.

But from this thread and some others I am begining to have doubts about my place and acceptance in the Israel of Elohim, his community of faith.
CIF

visionary · Mar 30, 2004

Sorry, but it just doesn't mesh with everything in scripture. I agree that Yeshua went only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the northern Kingdom and those in the south who had fallen away. That he states clearly. But his commission to the disciples were to go into all nations and to make disciples of all men. Not to make disciples of all of the lost sheep of Israel.

Until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.

Sephania · Mar 30, 2004

I will take you one of a city and two of a family and bring you back to Zion................Jer3:14

Anyone have any insight to what this means?

simchat_torah · Mar 30, 2004

You had said that those who feel a drawing to Torah are most likely really Jews and don' know it, which is very much a kin to the teachings of Messianic Israel such as Batya Wooten.

This by no means is what I consider 'theology'. This is merely an inkling I have when viewing prophecy in the Tenach concerning the hints we are given. Absolutely do I NOT consider this as a solid doctrine, merely an insight when considering prophetic value.

In no way am I supporting British Israelism, etc.

You said above that God gave Israel a Get, a divorce in Hosea and Ezekiel. Then would not recalling them to become his bride be a violation of the Toah pattern, that a man shall not remarry a woman whom he has divorced?

A get is much different than the actual divorce. The "bill of divorce" is the issuing of a divorce contract where the reasons are stated why the divorce will take place. This must be given to the Beit Din before the divorce becomes official.

HaShem basically filed for divorce. Y'shua stood in the way and nullified the bill of divorce. Y'shua brought the bride back to the altar to renew the marriage vows instituting the marriage from the start, as though the covenant had not been broken, thus no need for a Get.

I understand your position that the Writings of Paul, or really of the New Testament was addressed to the lost tribes, but is the wording for exogenic consistent in all the New testament writings?

Oh no, I don't believe in the Lost Tribes theory.

When Paul says Gentiles "Ethnos" does he never mean Gentiles, and is refering only to Israel. Why didn't he use more obvious communications then to clearly differentiate between Lost Israel and Gentiles.

I have two points to make:
1) The Hebrew/Aramaic wasn't anywhere near as murky and muddy as the Greek.
2) Those who lived 2,000 years ago, in Israel, who spoke a dead language (to us), were immersed in the culture, and studied under Paul... they themselves stated he was hard to understand. What makes us think today that we, 2,000 years removed, in a completely different culture, completely uneducated in the ways of 1st century Judaism... can 'easily' grasp the concepts he was trying to convey???

Thoughout the Tanahk there are many references to Gentiles "Those who dwell in your Gates" meaning those who adjoin themselves to Israel by choice, are to be included in all of the law and the covenants same as Israel.

Yep. And I still believe as such.
This is exactly what I'm referring to when I state the Gentiles are to come in the same doors today as they were in the Tenach. This has not 'changed' with the Brit Chadasha.

Noachide attachment of Gentiles sets them in a second class position, which is not from Torah.

I do not teach or view the Noachide covenant as an end all be all. The first century Jews taught that one must at least be adhering to the Noachide covenant or they were not allowed to step foot in the synagogue. It seems the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 was merely standing in agreement with first century Judaism on this matter. In fact, I think Ya'acov (james) never did intend for this to be an ending point as he concluded his Beit Din decision with:

21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

In other words, they were to continue learning the rest of Torah on Sabbath in the synagogue. However, in order for them to even enter the synagogue they must at least adhere to the Noachide covenant... a beginning point so to speak.

There is a great argument in Judaism concerning a specific ordinance given by G-d on Mt. Sinai...
"this is for you and for those not with you here today". Many rabbinical scholars believe those were were speaking to future generations of Jews. Other Rabbinic scholars argue that this was spoken to all nations. I tend to agree with the latter.

In fact it was Talmudic and really formed after the decision of Acts 15. In 1st century Judaism there were Jews, including converts, Gentiles, those who were not at all attached to Israel, righteous Gentiles who were part of the outer court and second class, and progressing postylites, who were in process, attending shul, would be circumcised and become Jews.

I too completely oppose this wall of seperation in the Temple. It was never intended in the first place. In fact, it goes against the instructions in the Torah on how the temple was to be built!!!

As far as the "second class citizen" garbage is concerned:
This is only taught when people misunderstand the role of the gentile in Judaism. The gentile has a special role. This role is not better or worse than the role of a Jew. It is merely different.

Calcium builds my bones strong.
Vitamin C builds up my immunity system so I don't get sick.

One is not necessarily better than the other, but each performs a function necessary for my body to maintain a level of healthiness. The same applies to the gentiles. This idea of 'second class citizen' is not a Judaic concept and unfortunately is only furthered by those in ignorance.

The Gospel does not continue this process of separation of the Gentles as Noachide believers and continuing on the other side of the wall of separation. That wall, which was really doctrine first, and made a physical wall on the foundation of that doctrine, was still standing physically when Paul ministered and said it was torn down by Messiah, so we know that he was refering to the doctrine that makes Gentiles less than Jews in the eyes of God.

The verse often used to deny the existence of Jews and their prophetic purpose is:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female."
Obvioiusly there is male and female. In the same regards, there is obviously Jew and Gentile. Males and Females each have their role to fulfill in the kingdom of G-d.... as do Jews and Gentiles. However, this verse is speaking to when we stand before G-d, we are no longer divided but are simply: human. He sees the heart. But this does not negate the roles we are to play here in our lives.

Is the role of a Male more important than that of a female? Are females second class citizens?
Obviously not.

So why do messianics and christians want to paint Jews and Judaism as proponents of this 'second class citizen' in regards to gentiles? I belive it is because messianics greatly misunderstand the special role the gentiles play in the plan of G-d. This does not mean we replace the role of the Jews with that of the gentile. Oh heavens no! That would be another form of replacement theology!

I agree that Yeshua went only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the northern Kingdom and those in the south who had fallen away. That he states clearly. But his commission to the disciples were to go into all nations and to make disciples of all men. Not to make disciples of all of the lost sheep of Israel.

Without a pure and spotless bride, what is there for the gentiles to be attracted to? Without the beacon of light, how are the gentiles to be led in the darkness?

Shalom,
yafet

simchat_torah · Mar 30, 2004

Then would not recalling them to become his bride be a violation of the Toah pattern,

Though I have already defended my statements in my last post, I want to make a reiteration of one more point here...

Since when was G-d bound by the torah? The Torah was made for mankind. For exmaple, a vulture can eat the meat of a pig, yet we can not. The Torah was made to protect the human. G-d is not bound to any mitzvot.

shalom,
yafet

ShirChadash · Mar 30, 2004

Zayit said:
I will take you one of a city and two of a family and bring you back to Zion................Jer3:14

Anyone have any insight to what this means?

I wonder if it has to do with the concept of "Many are called, few are chosen".

visionary · Mar 31, 2004

simchat_torah said:
It was a friend of mine, whom many of you know (from frequenting other forums) who goes by the handle BrookLaw. She showed me several passages in the Tenach that declare a return unto Torah by all of Israel in the last days. As well, there is a generous ammount of Rabbinical prophecy/teaching on this subject.

She said that she has challenged several individuals in the past who felt they were being led to the Torah to search out their lineage... and sure enough, all of them have found some sort of Jewish link.

BrookLaw is a Chassidic Jew who has attended classes at a very respectable Yeshiva. I am not sure, but I think that in her community most don't know she is messianic... aside from her family and Rabbi. Of course they (family/rabbi) feel that she is 'astray' but they don't reject her because she has not gone the way of 'jews for jesus'. She is full out observant, attends synagouge, and teaches deep Jewish concepts.

Anyway, it is from her that I got the concept. By no means can I verify that it holds true, I just agree with her that because of biblical prophecy (the Jews returning to Torah and to Israel in the last days) that if one feels a sudden burden and love for the Torah that there is a good chance they have Jewish lineage somewhere in their bloodline.

Shalom,
Yafet.

I can go back six generations of irish, english, scotch on both sides, (and touch of Cherokee on one side) of the family and not find any trace of jewishness yet...Morgan the Pirate on one side and Cook's navigator and surveyor of Australia are the two most famous.

I believe in the Torah and have been learning what is all involved in the understanding and truth in the light of Jesus that was being taught at Mount Sinai.

Sephania · Mar 31, 2004

Zemirah said:
I wonder if it has to do with the concept of "Many are called, few are chosen".

Thanks Zemirah for answering me I was beginning to think I was a "non-moot" poster in here.

But I don't quite see that, it says one from a city, a walled area? and two from a family, but not all the family, but some that are....................what? AND He says He will bring them back to Zion, the return of the outcasts of Israel? This definatly sounds like hand-picking choosing, whatever you want to call it, and what distinquishes these people? from the others in the city or the others in the family?

ShirChadash · Mar 31, 2004

Okay this is way off topic I think... and DH is the one who hold this theory at this point... I haven't fleshed it out... but Dh believes the true "rapture" that people keep talking about is really going to be a lifting up and removing of G-d's people to Israel at some point... don't ask me details I DUNNO we haven't had half a minute to discuss it yet.

simchat_torah · Mar 31, 2004

I can go back six generations of irish, english, scotch on both sides, (and touch of Cherokee on one side) of the family and not find any trace of jewishness yet...Morgan the Pirate on one side and Cook's navigator and surveyor of Australia are the two most famous.

I believe in the Torah and have been learning what is all involved in the understanding and truth in the light of Jesus that was being taught at Mount Sinai.

Like I said, "a good chance".... not "this method is 100% accurate"

Considering the day and age we live in, it stands to reason we are nearing the end of days. In light of the Tenach's prophecy, we have seen literally hundreds of Messianics who were born 'gentile christians' who then researched their family tree and found that in fact there was some Judaic ancestral heritage.

Again, this is only a 'good chance' when viewing scriptural prophecy. I don't want you to walk down the wrong path that Charles did and declare that I state this over everyone who follows torah... by no means am I saying that!

Shalom,
yafet

Charlesinflorida · Mar 31, 2004

Yefet,

My friend you blazed that trail open yourself.

But there are other things that perhaps you of zayit can answer.

Who is Yeshua to us? We as Gentiles have no Messiah!

What is this special purpose for Gentiles that you have mentioned several times? All I can see in scripture is the Gentiles being servants to Israel, carrying their daughters upon their shoulders and carrying in the wealth of the nations to Jerusalem.

I understand the Apostolic decree and that it is a starting point to begin Torah study where Moshe is taught in every city on Shabbat, ect. I have taught it the same way. But I have done so from the standpoint of adoption. Believing Gentile (actual heathern like myself and not misplaced Israelites) are adopted through faith and become part of Israel, as the mixed multitude in Egypt did. They were covered by the blood same as Jacobs children. But by your new discovery, there is no connection or heathens to Messiah Yeshua.) We must come on our own merit and face the Judgment by our own merit.
Further more if Paul was speaking about the dispersed of Israel and not heathens, then this apostolic decree of Act 15 does not apply to us either. It is how the recovered Israelites are to be assimulated bak in!

Please explain to me this special place of heathens, and what are we supposed to do. We have not rights or responsibilities to the covenants of Israel according to you. The Torah is not for us either for that is instructions Given by Adonai only to the household of faith.

Charles

simchat_torah · Mar 31, 2004

Who is Yeshua to us? We as Gentiles have no Messiah!

Yes you do

Moshiach ben Dovid! I think you can certainly rejoice that Moshaich ben Yossef has come in that the light of Israel is restored.

What is this special purpose for Gentiles that you have mentioned several times?

If there are no gentiles, who is Israel to shine a light in the darkness for? If there are no gentiles, why have they been made a priest to the nations? If there are no gentiles, where is the kingdom?

This special purpose is essentially Derech HaShem... the way of G-d.

All I can see in scripture is the Gentiles being servants to Israel, carrying their daughters upon their shoulders and carrying in the wealth of the nations to Jerusalem.

To be a lowly servant is to be at the head of the table achi

I understand the Apostolic decree and that it is a starting point to begin Torah study where Moshe is taught in every city on Shabbat, ect. I have taught it the same way. But I have done so from the standpoint of adoption.

Ahh, excellent... the path of Ruth.

Believing Gentile (actual heathern like myself and not misplaced Israelites) are adopted through faith and become part of Israel, as the mixed multitude in Egypt did.

Well, there is certainly a difference between adoption and a stranger in the land. There are mitzvot that apply to "the stranger in your camps". When one converts they are "adopted" into a tribe. These two concepts are not one. A stranger and an adopted son are two different roles.

We must come on our own merit and face the Judgment by our own merit.

So must the Jews my friend. This "atonement" sacrafice has not been made yet. The earthly copy was but a symbol of what will take place in the last days for all nations... Jew and Gentile alike. I hate to break it to you, but the Jew must also come before HaShem on his own merit.

Further more if Paul was speaking about the dispersed of Israel and not heathens, then this apostolic decree of Act 15 does not apply to us either.

Well, Acts 15 was speaking to the "G-d Fearers"....

Please explain to me this special place of heathens, and what are we supposed to do.

See above.

We have not rights or responsibilities to the covenants of Israel according to you.

That's right. Neither does Israel have the same rights and responsibilities that the Gentiles have. Without you, Israel would fall. Who has protected physical Israel? The gentiles. Who has supported them? Been their legs?

There are many other purposes and responsibilities that the Gentile must walk in light of... their "rights and responsibilities" are not non-existent... simply different from that of the Jews.

The Torah is not for us either for that is instructions Given by Adonai only to the household of faith.

The Torah is for humankind. It is the responsibility of Israel to distribute it to the nations. If the Gentiles did not exist, there would be no one to teach Torah to. The purpose of Israel is to be the keepers of the Torah. Without the Gentiles, the Jews are needlessly keeping the Torah.

Shalom,
yafet

Michelina · Mar 31, 2004

This thread is great. I am learning a great deal.

Thank you.

visionary · Apr 1, 2004

simchat_torah said:
Yes you do

So must the Jews my friend. This "atonement" sacrafice has not been made yet. The earthly copy was but a symbol of what will take place in the last days for all nations... Jew and Gentile alike. I hate to break it to you, but the Jew must also come before HaShem on his own merit.

WOW........"But into the second went the High Priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people" that only happens on the day of atonement
Errors of the both the Gentiles and Jews reconciling them both unto himself....in other words both sides are a little off center.

simchat_torah · Apr 1, 2004

visionary · Apr 3, 2004

visionary said:
WOW........"But into the second went the High Priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people" that only happens on the day of atonement
Errors of the both the Gentiles and Jews reconciling them both unto himself....in other words both sides are a little off center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by: simchat_torah

Yes you do

So must the Jews my friend. This "atonement" sacrafice has not been made yet. The earthly copy was but a symbol of what will take place in the last days for all nations... Jew and Gentile alike. I hate to break it to you, but the Jew must also come before HaShem on his own merit.

Reconciliation between the Yeshua believers, Messiah believers, and believers in Jesus Christ. Reconciliation between new testiment and old testiment. Reconciliation in the body of Christ. Revelations of the truth in a new light brought about in the last days by our Lord and Savior to bring about reconciliation between his people and the truth. The atonement service for Jesus as the High Priest, for the tabernacle, the temple, the altar, the showbread, and the menorah, the most holy of holies and the ark of the covenant. Reconciliation on all these points.

muffler dragon · Jun 20, 2004

Yafet:

Due to the fact that this is a topic you and I discussed this weekend, I thought I would bring up one question that pertains. As I am sure you're aware (I'm pointing this out for those who would not know), I am not bringing this up as a confrontation or as rebuttal, but more as an introspective to see what you might be able to glean and share back to me.

The Scripture that is in question is from Romans 11:
Israel Is Not Cast Away

1 I say then, God has not (1) rejected His people, has He? (2) May it never be! For (3) I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God (4) has not rejected His people whom He (5) foreknew. (6) Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, (7) THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
4 But what is the divine response to him? "(8) I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (9) a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
6 But (10) if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What (11) Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (12) hardened;
8 just as it is written,
"(13) GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
9 And David says,
"(14) LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10
"(15) LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
11 (16) I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (17) May it never be! But by their transgression (18) salvation has come to the Gentiles, to (19) make them jealous.
12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their (20) fulfillment be!
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (21) I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might (22) move to jealousy (23) my fellow countrymen and (24) save some of them.
15 For if their rejection is the (25) reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (26) life from the dead?
16 If the (27) first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the (28) branches were broken off, and (29) you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (30) it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 (31) You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (32) stand by your faith. (33) Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (34) kindness, (35) if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (36) will be cut off.
23 And they also, (37) if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For (38) I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (39) mystery--so that you will not be (40) wise in your own estimation--that a partial (41) hardening has happened to Israel until the (42) fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(43) THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27
"(44) THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(45) WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are (46) enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (47) the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the (48) calling of God (49) are irrevocable.
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For (50) God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of (51) the riches both of the (52) wisdom and knowledge of God! (53) How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34 For (54) WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
35 Or (55) WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
36 For (56) from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. (57) To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

As you can see from above, I am looking to deal with the issue of jealousy. There is much more from this passage that we can (and probably will) move into, but I will stay with this for now. In the question and thoughts below, I am working with the assumption that your interpretation is correct, so please come back from that angle and not a matter of what has been taught in christianity.

My base question is how would having hellen-Jews coming to salvation through Y'shua bring many of the Judeans to the same point through jealousy?
You may on your very own also proceed to help me with understanding the 'hardening' of the heart of the non-diaspora Jews so that the diaspora Jews may come to salvation.

Please correct me if I have presented a question that is a complete misunderstanding of your contention, but I think I am on track. I eagerly await your thoughts.

Nathan

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

My base question is how would having hellen-Jews coming to salvation through Y'shua bring many of the Judeans to the same point through jealousy?

I guess my first question in response would be:
Who is supposed to make who jealous?

Secondly, I would see some of this happening today. It might seem that many of those who have remained faithful to the Torah have become somewhat complacent. However, after the modern messianic movement, and various other newer groups rising who are torah observant, it has inspired the chassidic, orthodox, etc groups who have always been "walking in the light" to do so with passion.

-just an idea-

I know this wasn't exactly the answer you were looking for, or the length of answer, but its something to mull and chew on.

shalom,
yafet

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