Acts 10 Controversy

RobSav · Jul 8, 2003

Arabs/Muslims are Ishmaelites. They have a complex set of beliefs that allows them to passively believe in the bible while also maintaining that Christians and Jews made up the parts they don't like....heh. It's fairly difficult to talk to them about any subject.

simchat_torah · Jul 8, 2003

RobSav, how true... how very very true.

I actually have a very good friend from college who is a Muslim. Her brother lives in India and is quite high in their particular sect of Islam (there are 72) and he visited the US once. We got into a debate over many things ranging from Muhammad's life, to what is acceptible as scripture, the messiah, to antisemitism.

What I can tell you for sure after our lengthy discussion is that Islam goes in circles. It is unnecessary to prove anything theologically or doctrinally. It is merely a blind faith.

They ignore the lifestyle of Muhammed. They completely ignore the violent, raping, man slaughtering man... and say he came in the name of peace. Though that contradicts every bit of history, they ignore it completely.

They ignore the claims of Y'shua... through Jewish idioms used, he claimed to be the messiah. Yet they say he was a good teacher, but not the messiah... which would make him a liar, and not a good teacher.

They pick and choose what they want as scripture. They say the Torah was divine revelation that Muhammed and Islam are real, yet they chuck it aside as meaningless. Circular reasoning, isn't it?

I could go on and on...

But yes, RobSav, it is quite true that they passively ignore major chunks of historical and theological proofs and make up whatever they want. They are content with that.

Oy vey.
-Yafet.

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

It seems that much of what Sabian is discussing has already been hashed out here....

iitb · Sep 26, 2003

simchat_torah said:
But it is very likely that if your heart has been captured for Torah that you are a part of Yisrael's bloodline and do not know it.

This particular statement concerns me a little. I realize that Yafet would never promote any sort of replacement theology, and I don't think this qualifies as such, but I do feel that it can lead one down that path.

Honestly, the reason I even bring this up is that my congregation has bought into this 100%. As I've mentioned before, this group is very close to Avi ben Mordechai, and based on his teachings they are all convinced that they are part of Ephraim. While I have nothing but respect for Avi, I'm starting to feel that he might inadvertently be teaching a form of replacement theology.

Hmmm...I guess I really didn't have a point here...

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

It was a friend of mine, whom many of you know (from frequenting other forums) who goes by the handle BrookLaw. She showed me several passages in the Tenach that declare a return unto Torah by all of Israel in the last days. As well, there is a generous ammount of Rabbinical prophecy/teaching on this subject.

She said that she has challenged several individuals in the past who felt they were being led to the Torah to search out their lineage... and sure enough, all of them have found some sort of Jewish link.

BrookLaw is a Chassidic Jew who has attended classes at a very respectable Yeshiva. I am not sure, but I think that in her community most don't know she is messianic... aside from her family and Rabbi. Of course they (family/rabbi) feel that she is 'astray' but they don't reject her because she has not gone the way of 'jews for jesus'. She is full out observant, attends synagouge, and teaches deep Jewish concepts.

Anyway, it is from her that I got the concept. By no means can I verify that it holds true, I just agree with her that because of biblical prophecy (the Jews returning to Torah and to Israel in the last days) that if one feels a sudden burden and love for the Torah that there is a good chance they have Jewish lineage somewhere in their bloodline.

Shalom,
Yafet.

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

p.s. Many messianics who have come out of typical christianity have looked into their heritage and discovered some grandma, grandpa, or other ancestor is/was Jewish.

Many here on this forum have even stated such (ie: Talmid)

SonWorshipper · Sep 26, 2003

It's funny that you should mention Brooklaw, I have seen where she has stated that a Gentile has no business studying Torah and that they should not, I have not seen where she has encouraged anyone to search out why they felt that they should follow Torah, but rather that they should know their place. I have seen others hurt and upset by this.

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

It was something she shared with me via email... that privately, if someone comes to her (ie: messianic) and expresses that they feel a burden for Torah, she tells them to search out their heritage.

You can see where her line of thinking is. If Torah is only for the Jew, and these people have a hunger for Torah... then they must have Jewish lineage.

My conclusions are nearly the same as hers, but my justification is different. I do believe that most who search out Torah are of Jewish lineage (my conclusion) but not because "torah is only for the jew" (her justification) but because the Tenach is riddled with so many prophecies about Jews returning unto the Torah in the end times (my justification).

Essentially, her and I both feel that those who turn to torah today are most likely Jewish somewhere in their bloodline. But I think this is so because of prophecy, and she thinks so because Torah isn't for the gentile (in her view).

Shalom,
-Yafet.

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

The Rabbis do agree on one thing:

The Noachide covenant, and the Sabbath are for all people.

The Rabbis disagree on who torah is for. Some say everyone (including gentiles) others teach just for the Jew.

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

p4i, hehe, I'm glad I've got you curious. One should know their heritage.

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

I will be gone at a family's house for a traditional Rosh HaShannah dinner, and then off to synagouge from there. In otherwords, I won't be back for quite some time to respond to anything posted here.

shalom and shalom,
Yafet.

iitb · Sep 26, 2003

simchat_torah said:
I just agree with her that because of biblical prophecy (the Jews returning to Torah and to Israel in the last days) that if one feels a sudden burden and love for the Torah that there is a good chance they have Jewish lineage somewhere in their bloodline.

I'm not disputing this at all. I'm just finding that "good chance" is often being defined as "absolute truth."

Maybe I'm a little to cautious?

KelsayDL · Sep 26, 2003

It's funny that you should mention Brooklaw, I have seen where she has stated that a Gentile has no business studying Torah and that they should not

Personally, I believe it's an absurd position to hold. But maybe I misunderstand the scriptures and teachings of the Messiah when he says;

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I mean is it any clearer what the Apostles were commissioned to teach the gentiles? Didn't he teach them to observe the Torah? Isn't that what Messianic Judaism is all about?

So if he taught them to observe the Torah, wouldn't that be included in 'all things, and whatsoever'?

I mean maybe I'm being too simplistic and this passage has a great esoteric meaning to it, where one has to study under the rabbis for years to comprehend, or perhaps attend college and attain a degree for clarity on the matter.

Forgive my rant, but...

Theology has been making me bitter the last few months.

Feeling like I've been lied to the past 20yrs in christianity, and then when looking into the truth feeling like others who supposedly have the knowledge of the truth want nothing to do with you, or to put you under their thumb. Like it's their 'possession'.

simchat_torah · Sep 26, 2003

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I mean is it any clearer what the Apostles were commissioned to teach the gentiles? Didn't he teach them to observe the Torah? Isn't that what Messianic Judaism is all about?

If you go back and read the beginning of this thread, you might find that Y'shua was most likely talking about going out to teach the Jews who had been dispersed among the nations.

Who did he say he came for?

"I have come for the lost sheep of Israel."

-Just a thought.
Yafet.

Hannah-Elizabeth · Sep 27, 2003

Thank you for your teaching.

I was hungry and you gave me bread.

ten-k · Sep 27, 2003

yes, and then He says, 'I have 'other' sheep also
which are not of this fold'.

Kelsey, put not your trust in man or in princes
and above all put not your trust in traditional
christianity.

Put your 'trust' in God and what His word says.
depend not on any man for if you do you will
be let down.
yes, there are 'true' ministers who are led of
the Holy Spirit, but the 'false' ministers of
satan far 'out-number' the 'true ministers of God'.
the 'false' prophets are the many and those
'called and chosen' are a 'little' flock indeed.
seek the 'truth' and seek God's Kingdom with
all of your heart, soul and mind. be obedient
unto God for that is our 'first' priority.

don't let the 'bitterness' of this world over-come
you, but give your all in over-coming it and you
will reap many rewards.
may your apples be dipped in honey.

simchat_torah · Sep 27, 2003

Ezekiel, among other places, state the 'other fold' to be Ephriam... the sheep outside of Israel who have turned from Torah...

sojeru · Sep 27, 2003

thanks for sharing the such simchat.
I have known all this just didnt have the artillary for it.
I persoanally am one to believe that for the gentiles of no jewish heritage are only to follow the noahide laws.
However, if he insists in following the entire thing- and insists again- then let him.
and there is a difference even between the foreigners that joined israel and the israelis themselves. The foregners were not allowed to take passover if not fully one of ISRAEL. In other words, circumcised.

I actually have a bit of trouble understanding how the collosians (i think they were) are circumcised and can take the passover without really being circumcised?
may be you can help.

shalom u'brachot

ten-k · Sep 27, 2003

Rom.2:28-29

For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly
neither circumcision which is outward in the flesh
but he is a Jew which is one inwardly and
circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit
not in the letter, whose praise is not of men,
but of God.

sojeru · Sep 27, 2003

hi TEN-K
I know that thye must be circumcised of heart.
however, if they are not circumcised in flesh- how can they partake of the passover?

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