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ACNA and the 39 Articles of Religon

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Waxwing

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I was reading the 39 Articles of Religion (the part on predestination) and from it I gather that Anglicans are not generally supportive of Calvinism. Now, I have read that their is a acceptance/warmth towards Calvinism within ACNA form of Anglicanism and was wondering if they too subscribe to the 39 Articles of Religion as does the "mainstream" Anglican Church? If so, is their a official position on this doctrine ?

Of course if I misread predestination part of the Articles than the whole question is even more confusing :)
 
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ebia

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Waxwing said:
I was reading the 39 Articles of Religion (the part on predestination) and from it I gather that Anglicans are not generally supportive of Calvinism. Now, I have read that their is a acceptance/warmth towards Calvinism within ACNA form of Anglicanism and was wondering if they too subscribe to the 39 Articles of Religion as does the "mainstream" Anglican Church? If so, is their a official position on this doctrine ?

Of course if I misread predestination part of the Articles than the whole question is even more confusing :)

When discussing what Anglicans believe, if it's not confusing you can be sure you've missed something.
 
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ACNA affirms the importance of the 39 Articles. The Articles are very Calvinist in their tone, especially with the talk of the Eucharist, the Elect, Predestination, sola scriptura, the saints, and salvation in general. The ACNA's embrace of the Articles isn't surprising. Being of the Anglo-Orthodoxo-Catholic :)P) persuasion, I'm not happy. Anglicanism has troubled me for sometime in this regard. ACNA is in bad shape anyway thanks to the big rhino in the living room---women's ordination.
 
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Adam Warlock

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thanks to the big rhino in the living room---women's ordination.

Rhinos, elephants...we need to officially label some controversy as "hippos!" :D

hippo_wild.jpg
 
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Adam Warlock

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ACNA affirms the importance of the 39 Articles. The Articles are very Calvinist in their tone, especially with the talk of the Eucharist, the Elect, Predestination, sola scriptura, the saints, and salvation in general. The ACNA's embrace of the Articles isn't surprising. Being of the Anglo-Orthodoxo-Catholic :)P) persuasion, I'm not happy. Anglicanism has troubled me for sometime in this regard. ACNA is in bad shape anyway thanks to the big rhino in the living room---women's ordination.


But yeah, this is true. And an interesting thing about it is that ACNA isn't really very Calvinist. There seem to be plenty of Wesleyans, but there are not as many classic Calvinists in the mix. However, they love the Articles. Maybe it's because the Articles are seen as a tie to the Reformation (and having such a tie is more crucial than the content of that tie)? Whatever the case may be, they like 'em. And a lot of 'em like rhinos.
 
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ebia

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Elephant in the room

For other uses, see Elephant in the room (disambiguation).
"Elephant in the room" is an English metaphorical idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed. The idiomatic expression also applies to an obvious problem or risk no one wants to discuss.[1]

It is based on the idea that an elephant in a room would be impossible to overlook; thus, people in the room who pretend the elephant is not there have chosen to avoid dealing with the looming big issue.
 
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mark46

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Worldwide, there are four vibrant Anglican paths. For the most part within ACNA, there is one.

But yeah, this is true. And an interesting thing about it is that ACNA isn't really very Calvinist. There seem to be plenty of Wesleyans, but there are not as many classic Calvinists in the mix. However, they love the Articles. Maybe it's because the Articles are seen as a tie to the Reformation (and having such a tie is more crucial than the content of that tie)? Whatever the case may be, they like 'em. And a lot of 'em like rhinos.
 
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R_A

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I was reading the 39 Articles of Religion (the part on predestination) and from it I gather that Anglicans are not generally supportive of Calvinism. Now, I have read that their is a acceptance/warmth towards Calvinism within ACNA form of Anglicanism and was wondering if they too subscribe to the 39 Articles of Religion as does the "mainstream" Anglican Church? If so, is their a official position on this doctrine ?

Of course if I misread predestination part of the Articles than the whole question is even more confusing :)

Predestination of some form is simply a Biblical doctrine. It is strongly featured in the doctrine of St. Paul. Because of this, it is found among the Fathers, and is very prominently found in Aquinas.

What's really needed to be discussed is what kind of predestination we're talking about, because believe it or not, there are several kinds. In fact the most common misconception about Calvinism is that it's distinguishing characteristic is predestination (how could that be, when the word is found in Paul?). No, its unique feature is the kind of predestination it propounds -- what's called the unconditional election (God saves you, or not, before the beginning of the world, regardless of whatever choices or circumstances you have in life).

What regular Christianity teaches is conditional election (or predestination) -- God already knows what you're going to do before the beginning of the world, and saves or doesn't save you on the basis of whether you have the saving faith.
 
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RadixLecti

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I was reading the 39 Articles of Religion (the part on predestination) and from it I gather that Anglicans are not generally supportive of Calvinism. Now, I have read that their is a acceptance/warmth towards Calvinism within ACNA form of Anglicanism and was wondering if they too subscribe to the 39 Articles of Religion as does the "mainstream" Anglican Church? If so, is their a official position on this doctrine ?

Of course if I misread predestination part of the Articles than the whole question is even more confusing :)

ACNA seems to value to articles to some extent, but it has not come down with a particularly firm stance on them (in the same way that the Jerusalem Declaration does for example)

The calvinist tone of the articles is stronger when you read the article on Predestination in conjunction with the one on Free Will.

Here's some [friendly] food for thought for you as a Catholic:

Other than Infra/Supra Lapsarianism, what is the difference between the views of Calvin and St. Thomas Aquinas on Predestination (not other related issues, just predestination itself)?
 
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I'm well aware of the cliche/idiom, ebia, but along with a few other choice words, it seems "elephant" is another taboo word now in STR so I said "rhino." The list of taboos and words that hurt feelings is growing :p...it seems that elephants is somehow a bad word in here...why? I have no idea...

Elephant in the room

For other uses, see Elephant in the room (disambiguation).
"Elephant in the room" is an English metaphorical idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed. The idiomatic expression also applies to an obvious problem or risk no one wants to discuss.[1]

It is based on the idea that an elephant in a room would be impossible to overlook; thus, people in the room who pretend the elephant is not there have chosen to avoid dealing with the looming big issue.
 
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Adam Warlock

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I'm well aware of the cliche/idiom, ebia, but along with a few other choice words, it seems "elephant" is another taboo word now in STR so I said "rhino." The list of taboos and words that hurt feelings is growing :p...it seems that elephants is somehow a bad word in here...why? I have no idea...

11986997l.jpg

Haters gonna hate. :D
 
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RadixLecti

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What regular Christianity teaches is conditional election (or predestination) -- God already knows what you're going to do before the beginning of the world, and saves or doesn't save you on the basis of whether you have the saving faith.

I agree with your point in general, but I would make the point that in the Augustinian/ Thomistic understanding one is not predestined because of the faith that they will one day hold. Rather, they have faith because they have been predestined to have it:

As Augustine says, reasoning from Romans chapter 9: “Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, ‘not of works,’ but, ‘of future works,’ and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve.” --St. Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98.

Expounding on Romans 9:15, St. Augustine says, “And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens." -- St. Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98.

Thomas Aquinas followed in the thought of Augustine and denied that anyone's future faith could be the cause of their predestination:


"The Apostle says (Titus 3:5): "Not by works of justice which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." But as He saved us, so He predestined that we should be saved. Therefore, foreknowledge of merits is not the cause or reason of predestination." Summa Theologica Question 23, Art 5.

Aquinas includes future faith in his repudiation of "foreknowledge of merits." The above-mentioned statement (Question 23, Art 5) is in response to this objection:

"It seems that foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination. For the Apostle says (Romans 8:29): "Whom He foreknew, He also predestined." Again a gloss of Ambrose on Romans 9:15: "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" says: "I will give mercy to him who, I foresee, will turn to Me with his whole heart." Therefore it seems the foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination."

In other words, Aquinas (and Augustine) both held that Predestination did not depend on God's foreknowledge of someone's faith in the future. Calvin didn't really come up with something that was entirely new (along the lines of predestination). He built on the foundation that was laid by some of the greatest thinkers in the history of Christianity. I don't personally consider myself a Calvinist, but it can't be denied that Calvin's thinking, specifically along the lines of Election and Reprobation is very similar to the thinking of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

In this way you can't say that "regular" Christianity teaches conditional election unless you are willing to exclude St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas from what could be considered "regular".
 
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R_A

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Hi RadixLecti, good to find solid theological discussion here.


Augustine says, reasoning from Romans chapter 9: “Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, ‘not of works,’ but, ‘of future works,’ and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve.” --St. Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98.
Sorry, I don't have a lot of time to piece this one together, especially as it seems to hinge on the translation involved. "Romans 9" as a citation is not exactly specific :) The quote doesn't seem conclusive at the moment.

Expounding on Romans 9:15, St. Augustine says, “And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens." -- St. Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98.
Nobody argues that God cannot change the good and the evil wills of men whenever and wheresoever he chooses. The wills of many men were explicitly changed in the Scriptures. That is not the argument, the argument (of Calvinism) is that he changes the courses of the wills of ALL men.


"The Apostle says (Titus 3:5): "Not by works of justice which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." But as He saved us, so He predestined that we should be saved. Therefore, foreknowledge of merits is not the cause or reason of predestination." Summa Theologica Question 23, Art 5.

Problem is that Ambrose in the initial question used "faith" as an example of a future merit. In his response, Aquinas uses "works of justice" as a future merit. Works of justice are in no ways commensurable with faith, because they are the "works", while faith is not a "work". So I'm not sure why he switched the terms around.

The paragraph as he writes it -- works of justice not being the cause of predestination, is true, but it doesn't address the specific point of faith.
 
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ebia

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gurneyhalleck1 said:
I'm well aware of the cliche/idiom, ebia, but along with a few other choice words, it seems "elephant" is another taboo word now in STR so I said "rhino." The list of taboos and words that hurt feelings is growing :p...it seems that elephants is somehow a bad word in here...why? I have no idea...

Using "elephants" to refer to the controversy over the ordinations of non-celebate homosexuals is a spin-off from Lambeth 2008, where the topic was deliberately kept off the agenda until almost the end for several good reasons, and therefore it (the controversy, not the people) was the elephant in the living room nobody was allowed to talk about.

It fitted here perhaps because homosexuality is a restricted topic on CF.
 
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Homosexuality is a restricted topic and yet it seems it's the most talked-about topic in STR day in and day out. I'd be thrilled if it disappeared!

Using "elephants" to refer to the controversy over the ordinations of non-celebate homosexuals is a spin-off from Lambeth 2008, where the topic was deliberately kept off the agenda until almost the end for several good reasons, and therefore it (the controversy, not the people) was the elephant in the living room nobody was allowed to talk about.

It fitted here perhaps because homosexuality is a restricted topic on CF.
 
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ebia

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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Homosexuality is a restricted topic and yet it seems it's the most talked-about topic in STR day in and day out. I'd be thrilled if it disappeared!

Me too. Inevitably sometimes we need to talk about things like the Covenant, etc. But that should be it ideally.
 
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Waxwing

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ACNA affirms the importance of the 39 Articles. The Articles are very Calvinist in their tone, especially with the talk of the Eucharist, the Elect, Predestination, sola scriptura, the saints, and salvation in general. The ACNA's embrace of the Articles isn't surprising. Being of the Anglo-Orthodoxo-Catholic :)P) persuasion, I'm not happy. Anglicanism has troubled me for sometime in this regard. ACNA is in bad shape anyway thanks to the big rhino in the living room---women's ordination.


Huh, sounds like I did read something into the Articles that aren't there.:confused:...so it is a Calvinistic Document. Does this jive with what regular and ACNA Anglicans believe? I always thought they were Armenian. Of course I know the Anglicans are large diverse bunch so they'll be many answers, but generally and anecdotally speaking whats the average Anglican thoughts.
 
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