ACLU Wants Cross Removed from Cemetary Plot

[molder]

This cross is supposed to be a war memorial

 

[starchild]

This cross is supposed to be a war memorial

Because only Christians are allowed to serve?

 

[ACougar]

The cross really isn't an inapropriate symbol for those who gave thier lives for others. Even when the soldiers who serve are Wiccan, Muslim, Jewish or Athiests. This whole conflict isn't about a veterans memorial though that's just the latest ploy, it's a battle between the will of those local government leaders who want to make a statement about Christianity and thier government and those who support seperation of Church and State.

 

[Scally Cap]

This cross is supposed to be a war memorial

The "war memorial" designation was an after the fact status change, if you will, intended to get around the prohibition of newly installed state-sponsored religious symbols. The cross was NOT originally designed as or intended to be a "war memorial." It was designed to perch on top of a courthouse, for crying out loud, and after it was taken down and knocked around in somebody's garage for a couple of years, they dusted it off and planted it in the cemetary. It's a large piece of garage-sale kitsch with little redeeming aesthetic value that they tried to pretty up with a plaque.

"Whaddya mean we can't put a ten-foot cross in a public cemetary? I know, we'll donate a plot to somebody and have HIM put the cross there! Whaddya mean that doesn't work? I know! Let's call it a WAR MEMORIAL!"

 

[wowbagger]

Hope they don't take any of these...

Why would they care about personal markers located in Normandy, France?

Not all of those markers are crosses. There are Stars of David markers at Normandy. You can see one in the lower middle of the picture. The ACLU has no problem whatsoever with personally chosen religious markers on graves -even on Gov't property. The gov't is not choosing for them and will equally maintain all of the markers, regardless of religion.

There are many people who seem to think that this picture is of Arlington or that Arlington has crosses. It isn't. And they don't.

 

[Scally Cap]

There are many people who seem to think that this picture is of Arlington or that Arlington has crosses. It isn't. And they don't.

Just echoing this and re-emphasizing that the families of the people buried at Arlington can choose whatever religious symbol (or none) they want engraved on their stone. The government does not mandate that the stones include a religious designation, and does not mandate which religion must be represented if the family chooses a religious symbol.

 

[Vylo]

LOL...Wehn I sqw the picture I thought, gee that would go great with the Styrofoam Jesus. It is utterly tacky.

I could see Styrofoam Jesus wielding that cross .

 

[rahma]

These are the ok-ed emblems for veterans to have on their government funded headstones. The ACLU isn't trying to change these.

I am sad to see that there is no symbol for pagans of any stripe, which I believe ACougar mentioned earlier. Also, I am saddened that the only option for Muslims is a star and crescent, which many muslims do not consider to be an islamic symbol. Oh, and something called an "islamic 5 pointed star." Um yeah

And for those who complain about anti christian bias, check out your cross/christian denom options. Hooh boy!

 

[rahma]

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I could see Styrofoam Jesus wielding that cross .

Did you hear that Styrofoam Jesus got his own pond now, for baptisms viewable from the highway?

 

[Vylo]

Did you hear that Styrofoam Jesus got his own pond now, for baptisms viewable from the highway?

Oh yes, I'm sure everyone can't wait to be baptized in highway runoff.

 

[Norseman]

The atheist symbol there is awesome! Why can't Erwin give us that symbol instead of the stupid black brains?

 

[Vylo]

LOL I like how the Atheist symbol has an A in it, just incase I forget what letter it starts with?

 

[Vylo]

The atheist symbol there is awesome! Why can't Erwin give us that symbol instead of the stupid black brains?

Because the brains obviously means we are smarter, becuase it is true.


I base this on nothing . (I have always found the athiest and deist symbols to be a bit odd.)

 

[Dogman]

Many slam the ACLU becuase they abuse the law . ACLU is a lot like a building inspector or a man who looks after the dumpsters who loves to be a pain. Most of ACLU cases are useless which seems to point they are running out of real violation of the first amendment. Most of the time the first amendment is abused to support immorality like profanity and porngraphy. and what happens when not enough people are breaking the speed limit and no revenue coming in? Ever heard of speed traps? I'm not againest the speed limit and believe it good but I'm totally againest speed traps which is only attended to write up tickets. I would be 100% ACLU if they went after shoplifter yet I've seen too many shoplifter get off easy. So you probably get by shoplifting a lot easier than having prayer in school. You also have it easier to preach gay agenda a lot easier than prayer. Remember the first amendment was used to protect child porngraphy a few years ago. Also I see the ACLU used tax dollars to sue the boy scouts over the issue of homosexuality. ACLU has also attacking the NC law of common-law wife because a woman who been shacking up for so long will not be able to draw walfare. Poor woman , now she got to go to work like the rest of us.
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Your post is so ill-informed that I hardly know where to start. Perhaps you don't actually know much about the ACLU, which stands for the American Civil Liberties Union. They seek to ensure that no one's civil rights are being denied. Shoplifting-as a crime has nothing to do with civil liberties.

What point you are trying to make about speeding, eludes me. The question you reponded to was whether or not cops are anti-christian if they ticket speeders, therefore, you answer makes little sense.

Swearing is legal, it's about the right to free speech. Sorry if you don't like the law or the Bill of Rights. The first amendment isn't used to protect child pornography, child pornography is still against the law. The ACLU did not sue the boy scouts over homosexuality, they sued the boy scouts for denying one of their highest ranking, and most acknowledged scouts the right to continue to be in the scouts, once they found out he is gay. In other words, they denied him his civil rights-being gay is not criminal and they had no basis to deny him membership, except for their own bigotry. Who knows what the NC case is about, you are not very clear about what happened. I don't know who these preachers are that preach this "gay agenda" but don't go to their church if you don't like what they preach.

If you don't like living in a country that has a Bill of Rights or a Constitution that assures those rights, perhaps a nice little theocracy would appeal to you, I understand the Taliban is interested in regrouping. They don't have either document.

 

[molder]

"Whaddya mean we can't put a ten-foot cross in a public cemetary? I know, we'll donate a plot to somebody and have HIM put the cross there! Whaddya mean that doesn't work? I know! Let's call it a WAR MEMORIAL!"

What about the Canadian Cross of Sacrifice war memorial in Arlington National Cemetery that's way over ten feet high? This doesn't count?

 

[notto]

What about the Canadian Cross of Sacrifice war memorial in Arlington National Cemetery that's way over ten feet high? This doesn't count?

Most likely wouldn't be put in today but as it stands, it has a historical nature to it. There are also quite a diverse group of memorials at Arlington so the cemetery isn't exclusively represented with the cross or Christian symbols.

 

[wowbagger]

Most likely wouldn't be put in today but as it stands, it has a historical nature to it. There are also quite a diverse group of memorials at Arlington so the cemetery isn't exclusively represented with the cross or Christian symbols.

Totally agree. There are about 40 memorials at Arlington. Only 2 are crosses donated after WWI. They hardly dominate the cemetery enough to be viewed as a religious endorsement.

It's sometimes hard to see where to draw the line between historical value and promotion of religion. In this case, I think a Canadian donated memorial dedicated in the 1920's- and presented among several other secular monuments- qualifies.

Here's the list of memorials: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/memorials.htm

 

[revolutio]

Okay, the original article was a bit ambiguous, is the cross actually designating a grave? Or is it just standing in the cemetery? The latter seems a tad gaudy and unnecessary so I could understand the ACLU's case. But if it is on a grave I think they are being dorks.

Truthfully I don't really care either way since the cemetery owner is clearly okay with people putting the religious symbol they wish on their grave (i.e. the Star of David).

 

[Paula]

Probably grandfathered in by being there since 1925. Perhaps the ACLU will address it if somebody makes the case. It certainly would not be put up today due to precident that has been set. That is why government officials or employees who continue to attempt it will be taken to task. It is well understood and precidented that the government is to remain secular in its actions and endorsements.

Just ask Roy Moore.

The grandfathering theory doesn't apply in establishment clause cases. Just ask Michael Newdow.

It certainly would not be put up today due to precident that has been set.

What is the basis of your belief?

Actually, I don't think they will. There are many monuments that at this point are historical and the monuments at Arlington are fairly diverse. I don't think they would have a problem with a monument of catholic chaplins having a cross on it. That ones sort of a no brainer.

I could just see some ACLU aficionado trying to make a case that the Catholic Chaplins monument isn't incluuuuuuusive enough because it excluuudes people from other denominations.

Guys, I think we can draw a logical distinction between a gravesite marked with a cross and an 8-foot high attention-getting device. Seriously, an 8-foot tall lit cross in a graveyard? It's a place to mourn the dead, not Vegas!

Are you from America? Since when is it illegal to place a light on a monument?

There's a question of scale. Building a 2 story building requires pretty simple permits. Building a 20 story building on the same site is probably illegal, and certainly difficult to get approval for.

But no one has built a 20 story building.

In this case the cross is NOT on a tombstone, is huge and gawdy, and frankly, ridiculous.

Since when can't a person have a cross monument instead of a headstone?

I agree with Alarum. As I stated before, that eyesore is Christian-kitsch. Take it down, put up a windmill with spinning blades and little wooden tulips, and it will be as meaningful and slightly less tacky.

So you too feel the ACLU should be involved in the cemetery decorating business.

Of course he's not. If that were so, it would be Cy's grave. But it's not, it's 'a plot' and 'a memorial.'

What is the basis of your belief?

I see you mhatten... and I know what you're thinking:

This is the state with the Styrofoam Jesus, right?

So now we're dissing the entire state of Ohio?

Boy, have you missed the boat! What we're discussing is whether a cross in a public cemetery is legal, and also what business does the aclu have poking its nose around in how people bury their dead?

The boat has long left the dock with very few on board. Actually, I find it very amusing!

 

[praying]

Did you hear that Styrofoam Jesus got his own pond now, for baptisms viewable from the highway?

Well I always thought Christians had no sense of humor but I guess this proves me wrong.

A pond! LOL


Well obviously we Christians can't claim the moral high ground when it comes to not being tacky.