Accusatory

[pescador]

I think we walk on quicksand when we resort to a secular explanation or description of Christianity. Christian values are exactly that --- in no wise a violation of the First Amendment. And......... the US has, from its founding, been governed by Godly, Christian principles.......at least until the uproar in the 1960's tore the national apart. "I do my thing, you do your thing," "I'm OK, you're OK," disrupted the Christian perspective, led millions into disarray. Today we Christians are immersed in that very disarray.

1) How else do you define Christianity if not in secular terms. Is there some secret heavenly language that can explain it better?

2) Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, and many other religious values aren't in violation of the First Amendment either, as it guarantees freedom of religion.

3) The First Amendment means exactly what it says. The authors of the Constitution guaranteed in writing that the United States would not be governed by any particular set of religious values.

4) Your comments about the 1960s are very, very strange. Do you consider the principle that all people should have equal rights under the law wrong?? "I'm OK, you're OK" is accepting that all people regardless of their differences, should be treated with dignity and respect and be equal under the law. "All men [and women] are created equal and entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Which type of people did Jesus reject? Answer: none. He accepted everyone, including the most despised people in his society. Should we behave differently than Jesus?

 

[thesunisout]

I have heard this argument over and over and over.

We are not living in a "post christian society". (Do you intentionally not capitalize "christian"?) The only Christian society is the kingdom of heaven. The US was never a Christian society and never will be. People have sinned throughout our history and the First Amendment legally prohibits the establishment of any state religion. Do you think that child labor, racism, unfair treatment of women at home and in the workplace, organized crime, unsafe working conditions, slavery(!), and a host of other issues are Christian behavior? What about the wholesale murder of Native Americans? There are many, many issues besides these that prove we were never a "Christian nation"; that is just fantasy.

I don't think that people are hypersensitive about sin. They are rightly resentful of self-righteous people who behave like the men that accused the woman of adultery and were ready to stone her to death. (Which is the worse sin?) Instead of loving people and showing them through love and compassion that there is a better way to live, they insult people whom they don't know. Who is more at sin here?

Jesus cited the two major commandments: love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. That is the only Christian way to behave.

We are actually living in a post-christian society. No, I was not intentionally not capitalizing Christian. I am not saying the whole country was born again, I was saying that the values of the society used to be based on Christian principles. America has changed its views on Jesus, the bible, heaven and hell, sin, absolute truth, etc..in some cases, radically. What used to be good is now bad, and what used to be bad is now good. That is provably true just looking at statistics about belief over the past few decades.

 

[thesunisout]

I get what you are saying. We don't like to be told that we are in sin. I have been one of those who hate to be told that I am in sin. I have a couple of besetting sins that are almost impossible to stop. I have gone after Christians because I do not like to be told that I am in sin. But at the same time it does seem like when they preach against sin they do it in a very self-righteous way. I mean, you have Christians going into Target screaming at the top of their lungs about how sinful everybody is just for shopping at Target. There was this one Christian lady who was politely trying to talk to some of those Christians and they asked her who she was. And she told them that she was a Christian. And they said you are not a Christian. It hurts to see Christians accuse each other this way. But I also get that we don't like to be told that we are in sin as well. Me calling those Christians self-righteous, arrogant, and just plain false Christians is in itself self-righteous and very are hypocritical, because of my besetting sins.

But I also realize that who cares if they are doing it out of self righteous and arrogance. Paul said he didn't care if people preached out of selfishness or not, as long as the name of Jesus Christ was being glorified. Jesus also told the disciples to obey the Pharisees even though they are hypocritical. So I think it's a good thing to tell me when I am in sin, even if it's done to make themselves look more righteous and holy. Because if I listen and put my trust in Jesus Christ and turn from my sin it will be life. But whether they are self-righteous or not that is between them and God. But it is offensive to me when Christians accuse each other of not being true Christians because of another person's weakness or because their philosophy is different than theirs.

Paul was constantly reprimanding the church because of their sins, but he never accuse them of not being true Christians. Although he did say anybody who lives a sinful lifestyle will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Actually, to be perfectly honest I am a little confused with Paul. He told the Galatians that Division and fighting is of the flesh; and those who live in such lifestyle will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven as well. And yet, the early church lived that kind of Lifestyle. But he still did not accuse them of not being true Christians. I don't know.

I do believe that we are supposed to preach against sin as long as we realize that according to scripture everyone deserves death including the person that is preaching. Some people get the impression that some of those preachers act like they are perfect. That's the impression of the world. Now, I had the same impression, which was because I was in sin myself. Well, I still have sin in my life. But I desire to change.

That's why I also asked the question if Paul was here on Earth preaching, would we accuse him of self-righteousness? I probably would. I have Impressions on Christians, but my impressions are of the flesh. Yes, it does seem like the church can be very self-righteous, but that is my sin. I need to give that up to God. Jesus probably would have seemed very self-righteous to me as well.

What we have to be careful is dismissing the message because of the messenger. All of us are flawed messengers for the Lord in some way, but the Lord uses us to deliver His gospel. People will latch on to the flaws and hypocrisy of some Christians and use it as an excuse to dismiss the message.

It's good that you will receive correction even from flawed messengers. I have found in my life that the Lord will use flawed messengers to deliver a rebuke as a test. I also want to share with you that the Lord can deliver you from any besetting sin if you repent of that sin. There is no sin stronger than the blood of Jesus Christ, and God promises in 1 John 1:9 to forgive us from our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It may be impossible in the flesh, but the Spirit can deliver us from any sin.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

What we have to be careful is dismissing the message because of the messenger. All of us are flawed messengers for the Lord in some way, but the Lord uses us to deliver His gospel. People will latch on to the flaws and hypocrisy of some Christians and use it as an excuse to dismiss the message.

It's good that you will receive correction even from flawed messengers. I have found in my life that the Lord will use flawed messengers to deliver a rebuke as a test. I also want to share with you that the Lord can deliver you from any besetting sin if you repent of that sin. There is no sin stronger than the blood of Jesus Christ, and God promises in 1 John 1:9 to forgive us from our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It may be impossible in the flesh, but the Spirit can deliver us from any sin.

I agree with you on that one.

 

[pescador]

We are actually living in a post-christian society. No, I was not intentionally not capitalizing Christian. I am not saying the whole country was born again, I was saying that the values of the society used to be based on Christian principles. America has changed its views on Jesus, the bible, heaven and hell, sin, absolute truth, etc..in some cases, radically. What used to be good is now bad, and what used to be bad is now good. That is provably true just looking at statistics about belief over the past few decades.

We are not living in a post-Christian society. Every Sunday, millions of people attend church, millions more watch religious TV programs, millions of people wear crosses around their necks, have Christian symbols and bumper stickers on their cars, etc. I am in my eighth decade of life and I have not seen the change that you describe. Most people still have the same views of Jesus, the Bible, heaven and hell, sin, absolute truth, etc. Good is still good and bad is still bad. If that is the case where you live -- it certainly isn't where I live -- I suggest that you move and stop listening to sermons and reading articles that confirm your own opinion.

 

[thesunisout]

We are not living in a post-Christian society. Every Sunday, millions of people attend church, millions more watch religious TV programs, millions of people wear crosses around their necks, have Christian symbols and bumper stickers on their cars, etc. I am in my eighth decade of life and I have not seen the change that you describe. Most people still have the same views of Jesus, the Bible, heaven and hell, sin, absolute truth, etc. Good is still good and bad is still bad. If that is the case where you live -- it certainly isn't where I live -- I suggest that you move and stop listening to sermons and reading articles that confirm your own opinion.

Statistics don't lie. The moral decline of America is profound and well documented. This is a culture that roundly rejects the fundamental truths of the scripture and God's commands, and this is shown in the way they live, not in what they say. We are dealing with a people whose hearts are hard against Jesus Christ because the last few generations grew up way more secular than ever before, or if they did have religion it was cultural Christianity. Prior to this there was broad agreement on truth and there were certain behaviors which only a few people did because of the shame involved in being caught. Whereas now the behavior is normal, approved, even encouraged.

 

[pescador]

Statistics don't lie. The moral decline of America is profound and well documented. This is a culture that roundly rejects the fundamental truths of the scripture and God's commands, and this is shown in the way they live, not in what they say. We are dealing with a people whose hearts are hard against Jesus Christ because the last few generations grew up way more secular than ever before, or if they did have religion it was cultural Christianity. Prior to this there was broad agreement on truth and there were certain behaviors which only a few people did because of the shame involved in being caught. Whereas now the behavior is normal, approved, even encouraged.

If that's your fantasy you're welcome to it. It's obvious that you have no idea what life was like in this country, even decades ago. I'm certain that you are going to continue to reinforce your beliefs even if they have no basis in fact.

You say, "The moral decline of America is profound and well documented." Where is it documented?

You also say, "This is a culture that roundly rejects the fundamental truths of the scripture and God's commands, and this is shown in the way they live, not in what they say." Who is "they"? Are you from another culture? Can you give any real-world examples instead of these meaningless generalities?

 

[thesunisout]

If that's your fantasy you're welcome to it. It's obvious that you have no idea what life was like in this country, even decades ago. I'm certain that you are going to continue to reinforce your beliefs even if they have no basis in fact.

You say, "The moral decline of America is profound and well documented." Where is it documented?

You also say, "This is a culture that roundly rejects the fundamental truths of the scripture and God's commands, and this is shown in the way they live, not in what they say." Who is "they"? Are you from another culture? Can you give any real-world examples instead of these meaningless generalities?

That's okay, have a good one Pescador.

 

[pescador]

That's okay, have a good one Pescador.

So you won't justify your beliefs? That's not okay. If you can't then it's just malicious gossip.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I can think of no better explanation that Christ’s own words in Luke 18:9-14.


“9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.””



There’s a reason why Jesus spent a lot of time taking the Pharisees to task. They were the epitome of self-righteousness and censoriousness. They were more concerned about external appearances and trying to “out-holy” their neighbor than they were about allowing the Lord into their hearts. Listen to how he described them in Matthew 23:26…



“26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.”



The spirit of the Pharisee is alive and well today, and a bit of it lives in us all. We would do well to remember Jesus’ teachings about such things and humble ourselves accordingly. Someone on here has the signature line, “The Bible is shaped like a heart, not a club.” I couldn’t agree more.

 

[pescador]

I can think of no better explanation that Christ’s own words in Luke 18:9-14.


“9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.””



There’s a reason why Jesus spent a lot of time taking the Pharisees to task. They were the epitome of self-righteousness and censoriousness. They were more concerned about external appearances and trying to “out-holy” their neighbor than they were about allowing the Lord into their hearts. Listen to how he described them in Matthew 23:26…



“26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.”



The spirit of the Pharisee is alive and well today, and a bit of it lives in us all. We would do well to remember Jesus’ teachings about such things and humble ourselves accordingly. Someone on here has the signature line, “The Bible is shaped like a heart, not a club.” I couldn’t agree more.

Who has that wonderful signature line?? 8^)