Accountable for our beliefs

Lynden1000 · Mar 19, 2006

EverlastingMan said:
THe examples you give don't quite apply. She wasn't saying that we choose to believe or not believe everything, just somethings-like salvation.

And I think she is incorrect, for the reasons I suggested above.

Silvertongue · Mar 20, 2006

I agree with the "beliefs are not a conscious choice on our part" sentiments. To add to the taste analogy, I've always said, "Assume for the sake of argument that I've never tasted an orange before. You give me a piece, and I chew it slowly, savoring it, letting the juices course through my mouth. Now, do I sit there and consciously decide 'I like this' or 'I don't like this'? No, of course not. I just do"--or "did," I should say...oranges=yummy

Likewise, when I am presented with the Gospel message, I don't sit there and crank my mental gears and flex my congnitave muscles and *make* myself believe or disbelieve...I just don't. I don't like the taste of it, so to speak. No conscious effort was ever exerted at any time during that process. The same goes for the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, or any other religous document.

Also, concerning Christian theology, if our eternal salvation lies with a choice that we can make or not make, then doesn't it then become salvation by works, rather than by grace? Sure, Jesus may have opened a door that I never could have, and deserves some thanks for that, but in the end I was the one who saved myself, by "choosing" to walk through it. Just from my understanding of Scripture, particular the ninth chapter of Romans, I've always thought that Calvinists are the most correct version of Christianity out there, monstrous as it might be.

elman · Mar 20, 2006

Silvertongue said:
I agree with the "beliefs are not a conscious choice on our part" sentiments. To add to the taste analogy, I've always said, "Assume for the sake of argument that I've never tasted an orange before. You give me a piece, and I chew it slowly, savoring it, letting the juices course through my mouth. Now, do I sit there and consciously decide 'I like this' or 'I don't like this'? No, of course not. I just do"--or "did," I should say...oranges=yummy

Likewise, when I am presented with the Gospel message, I don't sit there and crank my mental gears and flex my congnitave muscles and *make* myself believe or disbelieve...I just don't. I don't like the taste of it, so to speak. No conscious effort was ever exerted at any time during that process. The same goes for the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, or any other religous document.

Also, concerning Christian theology, if our eternal salvation lies with a choice that we can make or not make, then doesn't it then become salvation by works, rather than by grace? Sure, Jesus may have opened a door that I never could have, and deserves some thanks for that, but in the end I was the one who saved myself, by "choosing" to walk through it. Just from my understanding of Scripture, particular the ninth chapter of Romans, I've always thought that Calvinists are the most correct version of Christianity out there, monstrous as it might be.

I think the Calvinist view is monstrous and not the most correct interpretation of scripture. Jesus taught love your neighbor, demonstrated what He meant in the parable of the good Samaritan and said at the last judgment the division of the sheep and the goats is not on intellectual decisions but on the decisions to help people in need. Matt 25:31 and following. All of first John is about God being love and us not being His children if we do not love-an action verb.

TexasSky · Mar 20, 2006

In Christianity "Belief" is not "knowledge of", it is "trust in." (Even the demons of Satan knew the Christ was Christ.) We control who we place our trust in.

icbeckyc · Mar 20, 2006

sjstudy said:
Since belief is not in our control how can we be held accountable for it?

Since when has a belief not been in our control?

be·lief -The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.

Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

So you see something and choose to accept it. I read and study the Bible and I choose to believe or have a belief in what it says. For that matter I eat an orange my brain says yup I like it so I believe it's good to eat. Granted if I had an orange and it was bitter instead of sweet, I may choose to believe that oranges are bad or gross, untill I finally have a sweet one. Then I can change my belief.

Now I don't see any unicorns, I have read that the ones in storys with magical powers aren't real, they are listed under fables so I choose to not believe in Unicorns. Now I can say that I have changed my mind, but is it everythat easy to "change" someones mind with out something that shows some kind of proof.

Thanks to the grace of Jesus Christ, I can to choose to believe that when he died on the cross it was to pay for my sins. After reading and studying I have choosen to believe. Now people that have never heard the word or had the opportunity to read the word of God, they are not held accountable for their belief, since they had no knowledge to change what they believe.

Granted in this world, thanks to media and missionaries how many people have not heard something to lead them to question or come to a firm belief in the word of God. These people are the ones being held accountable for their beliefs.

At least in my opinion....

Merlin · Mar 25, 2006

If you are asking of Christianity, no one is accountable for belief.
We are accountable for actions.

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 26, 2006

Merlin said:
If you are asking of Christianity, no one is accountable for belief.
We are accountable for actions.

Your actions happen as a result of your beliefs.

levi501 · Mar 27, 2006

Can anyone here truly make themselves believe in unicorns?

case closed. next topic.

elman · Mar 27, 2006

levi501 said:
Can anyone here truly make themselves believe in unicorns?

case closed. next topic.

no the case is not closed. Can anyone here chose to treat someone else as they want to be treated?

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 27, 2006

You can reason yourself into believing a lot of things, true or false.

levi501 · Mar 27, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
You can reason yourself into believing a lot of things, true or false.

True... but there's a reason.
Atheists say supply that reason. No one has.

levi501 · Mar 27, 2006

elman said:
no the case is not closed. Can anyone here chose to treat someone else as they want to be treated?

Poisoning the well so you can avoid the question. This has nothing to do with belief.

Do you have the ability to answer the question?
People claim they have as much reason to believe in god as they do unicorns... meaning they can see no evidence of either. Try being honest Elman and answer the question. Can you force yourself/choose to truly believe in the existence of unicorns?

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 27, 2006

levi501 said:
True... but there's a reason.
Atheists say supply that reason. No one has.

No, people have given reasons, but people just don't want to believe the ones given.

levi501 · Mar 27, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
No, people have given reasons, but people just don't want to believe the ones given.

No all evidence equates to personal or anecdotal. While this might be compelling to the individual it isn't considered demonstrable, observable or testable.

Sorry, not all reasons are created equal.

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 27, 2006

levi501 said:
No all evidence equates to personal or anecdotal. While this might be compelling to the individual it isn't considered demonstrable, observable or testable.

Sorry, not all reasons are created equal.

Yes, but a reason is a reason, is it not? The fact is, you ask for evidence or whatnot and people give what they believe and know as such...it's up to the person that asks to believe it or not, thus you can't accuse folks of not giving you reasons because they have. You simply don't believe them because they aren't up to your own personal or indv. standards.

levi501 · Mar 27, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Yes, but a reason is a reason, is it not?

no.

And if this isn't obvious, then it's too rudimentary for me to take the time and explain. sorry.

elman · Mar 27, 2006

levi501 said:
Poisoning the well so you can avoid the question. This has nothing to do with belief.

Do you have the ability to answer the question?
People claim they have as much reason to believe in god as they do unicorns... meaning they can see no evidence of either. Try being honest Elman and answer the question. Can you force yourself/choose to truly believe in the existence of unicorns?

Chritianity and believing we exist for a reason and that we were created is not the same issue as unicorns. The existence of unicorns is not relavant to me. The existence of God is. I have not seen the workings of unicorns in my life. I have seen the working of God. I don't force myself to believe in God. I chose to believe in Him. Are you truly incapable of seeing any difference in believing in the existence of God and believing in the existence of unicorns?

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 27, 2006

levi501 said:
no.

And if this isn't obvious, then it's too rudimentary for me to take the time and explain. sorry.

Okay, but you seem to be the one making something simple into complexity.

levi501 · Mar 27, 2006

elman said:
Chritianity and believing we exist for a reason and that we were created is not the same issue as unicorns. The existence of unicorns is not relavant to me. The existence of God is. I have not seen the workings of unicorns in my life. I have seen the working of God. I don't force myself to believe in God. I chose to believe in Him. Are you truly incapable of seeing any difference in believing in the existence of God and believing in the existence of unicorns?

Wrong.
You believe in God because you have seen evidence for him. You don't believe in unicorns because you've seen no evidence for them. Atheist have seen no evidence for God, as you haven't for unicorns, so they can't believe. Can you force yourself to believe in something without a reason? If you could then you could force yourself to believe in unicorns also.

elman · Mar 28, 2006

levi501 said:
Wrong.
You believe in God because you have seen evidence for him. You don't believe in unicorns because you've seen no evidence for them. Atheist have seen no evidence for God, as you haven't for unicorns, so they can't believe. Can you force yourself to believe in something without a reason? If you could then you could force yourself to believe in unicorns also.

I have seen no evidence in unicorns because there is none. Atheists have denied they see evidence of God and refused to see evidence of God, but I suspect they all have seen God working in their lives or in the lives of others. Belief is a word that means one thing in the way you say it and use it, and another in the way most Christians and Jesus said it. You are talking about intelectual assent. We are talking about a mind set that produces action. I suspect you have heard this before.

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