Accepting Christ

[Searching_for_Christ]

I have a question in regards to the traditional Lutheran belief in accepting Christ. Now I'm going to start by saying that Calvinism is damaging to me..my dad has recently this year became a Calvinist. Apparently a good book to buy as a Calvinist beginning to learn stuff is a book called "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther It was my understanding that Lutheranism was different from Calvinistic teachings of accepting Christ, and personal Choice, so what is the Lutheran stance exactly?

 

[DaRev]

Because of Mankind's inherited sinful condition, we are not capable of "accepting" Christ. Our natural sinful tendency is to reject Christ. We do not accept Christ, He accepts us. He chooses us. He saves us. Our will is bound to the sinful because of our inherited human nature. While we do not have the ability to accept Christ, we do have the ability to reject Him. Our salvation is worked totally by Him and is passive on our part. Our damnation is totally worked by us and is active on our part.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

So how is that different from Calvinism?

 

[Protoevangel]

So how is that different from Calvinism?

I hope I will be forgiven for speaking for the Lutherans, but in this one doctrine, it is not very far from what Calvinists believe. Lutherans do believe that man is, in his natural state, completely opposed to God, and that God elects us based on no merit of our own.

In several areas, however, the differences are much more pronounced. The Lutherans to not believe in double-predestination (that some people are predestined for Hell), as do Calvinists. Lutherans do not believe in a Limited Atonement (where Christ only died for some people), as the Calvinists do. Lutherans do not believe in Irresistible Grace (that God's grace cannot be rejected), as the Calvinists do. Lutherans also do not believe in the doctrine called Perseverance of the Saints (that it is impossible for the faithful to fall away), as do Calvinists.

Hope this eases your mind some.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I hope I will be forgiven for speaking for the Lutherans, but in this one doctrine, it is not very far from what Calvinists believe. Lutherans do believe that man is, in his natural state, completely opposed to God, and that God elects us based on no merit of our own.

In several areas, however, the differences are much more pronounced. The Lutherans to not believe in double-predestination (that some people are predestined for Hell), as do Calvinists. Lutherans do not believe in a Limited Atonement (where Christ only died for some people), as the Calvinists do. Lutherans do not believe in Irresistible Grace (that God's grace cannot be rejected), as the Calvinists do. Lutherans also do not believe in the doctrine called Perseverance of the Saints (that it is impossible for the faithful to fall away), as do Calvinists.

Hope this eases your mind some.

Thank you for this answer. Being that Lutherans believe that we cannot choose Christ in and of our selves then how do they (you guys) believe we can come to the time that we CAN choose? do you believe its after hearing the word being preached? Because if you really believe that Christ died for all (tho not everyone is going to be saved) then this must mean that everyone is going to have an equal chance to accept Christ as savior...what happens that changes you from "not able" to "able" and how are you suppose to tell the difference?

 

[Till]

Because if you really believe that Christ died for all (tho not everyone is going to be saved) then this must mean that everyone is going to have an equal chance to accept Christ as savior

You are applying logic and are deriving doctrines by deducing. That is a Calvinist approach. Or an Arminian. It is all the same.

Scriptures teach that

- God wants all to be saved and Christ died for all
- Humans in their natural state are lost and cannot "accept" Christ
- Faith that saves us is brought and strengthend in our hearts PURELY through the working of the Holy Spirit through the word and sacraments. Nothing to do with our will. So our salvation is all from God.
- Condemnation is completely our own doing and is not a result of God condemning us.

All these points are truth revealed in Scriptures. Do they all fit in a neat system? No, they don't. But as Scriptures reveals it and does not reveal anything else, let's stick to that.

 

[LilLamb219]

then this must mean that everyone is going to have an equal chance to accept Christ as savior

This type of thinking puts salvation back in our hands.

We are NOT saved because of anything we have done...it's 100% God's doing. He chose us. We cannot choose Him. Our natural state wants to reject Him. Our sins were forgiven at the cross and we are reconciled to God...when we are given faith to believe this, our eyes open and we see that we are His. It has nothing to do with making a choice to be His. Adopted children do not have a choice...they acknowledge and give thanks.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Well my main question was (hopefully this is stated better than my last question) God opens everyones eyes at some point correct? in order for there to be unlimited atonement, then God at some point or another in everyone's lives opens us up to the truth...is this a correct assumption?

 

[LilLamb219]

I do not know...and sometimes it's ok to say that

 

[JimfromOhio]

I have a question in regards to the traditional Lutheran belief in accepting Christ. Now I'm going to start by saying that Calvinism is damaging to me..my dad has recently this year became a Calvinist. Apparently a good book to buy as a Calvinist beginning to learn stuff is a book called "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther It was my understanding that Lutheranism was different from Calvinistic teachings of accepting Christ, and personal Choice, so what is the Lutheran stance exactly?

I am not sure if that Calvinism that really believes in "acceptance". I was a member of a Calvinist church for about a year and followed Reformed theology for years. To me, Lutherans and Calvinists are similar. The best example is looking at TULIP. the Bible does not present faith as simply "mental assent to the facts of the gospel" but rather true saving faith involves repentance from my own sin and a complete trust in the work of Christ to save me from sin and make me righteous. Through the doctrine of Soli Deo gloria: All glory is due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through His will and action—not only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

Arminians attack Lutherans for not believing in the freedom of the will and for leaving the door open to anti-nominianism. Lutherans condemn Arminians for not believing in predestination and Calvinists for believing in double predestination. Calvinists attack Lutherans for “not going far enough in the Reformation.”

From my position, I am usually a Reformed follower which includes many of Martin Luther's writings, as well as John Calvin, John Knox and many others. One of the major reasons I moved away from Reformed (Calvinist) is the mystery of God's salvation for us. No matter how much knowledge we have in the Mystery of God, we will never fully comprehend God until we die. In Isaiah 55:8-9 God says, "My thoughts are completely different from yours, and my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. We are to judge through, to see through to the truth, to truly evaluate something what what we are hearing is biblical or not. Knowledge of the mystery is having the reality of an experience of knowing God personally and consciously.

I am not sure this post helps but I hope so. Have a good day.

Jim

 

[JimfromOhio]

Well my main question was (hopefully this is stated better than my last question) God opens everyones eyes at some point correct? in order for there to be unlimited atonement, then God at some point or another in everyone's lives opens us up to the truth...is this a correct assumption?

Yes, I believe God CALLS everyone to come to Him. God constantly intervenes in our lives through His Providence. This also include the election of salvation. Before, a person was spiritually DEAD until the Holy Spirit prick's a person's heart, made that person aware of his/her sins and convicted them to repent. This conviction caused a person to understand and aware of their sins that he/she have to respond (or reject by the hardening of the hearts). God’s love extends to all in the gospel offer and Scripture says simply, “they were unwilling to come” (Matthew 22:3). Jesus told his servants, “The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast” (v. 9). Here, Jesus opened the invitation to all comers but at the end, Jesus closes with this: “Many are called, but few are chosen” (v. 14). The gospel invites many to come who are unwilling to come. Many are called who are not chosen. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all. Whosoever will may come, the invitation is not issued to the just the elect alone. Its clear that the gospel is a free offer of Christ and His salvation to all whoever hear Holy Spirit's conviction.

I hope this helps.

Jim

 

[RobertZ]

Yes, I believe God CALLS everyone to come to Him. God constantly intervenes in our lives through His Providence. This also include the election of salvation. Before, a person was spiritually DEAD until the Holy Spirit prick's a person's heart, made that person aware of his/her sins and convicted them to repent. This conviction caused a person to understand and aware of their sins that he/she have to respond (or reject by the hardening of the hearts). God’s love extends to all in the gospel offer and Scripture says simply, “they were unwilling to come” (Matthew 22:3). Jesus told his servants, “The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast” (v. 9). Here, Jesus opened the invitation to all comers but at the end, Jesus closes with this: “Many are called, but few are chosen” (v. 14). The gospel invites many to come who are unwilling to come. Many are called who are not chosen. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all. Whosoever will may come, the invitation is not issued to the just the elect alone. Its clear that the gospel is a free offer of Christ and His salvation to all whoever hear Holy Spirit's conviction.

I hope this helps.

Jim

What if a person was to harden their hearts up to the point that God no longer dealt with that person. Then lets say later on in life the person realizes that God is no longer speaking to them and desperately tries to get saved but cannot obtain salvation because God has let them go?

 

[seajoy]

What if a person was to harden their hearts up to the point that God no longer dealt with that person. Then lets say later on in life the person realizes that God is no longer speaking to them and desperately tries to get saved but cannot obtain salvation because God has let them go?

What you are saying is not possible, because if you still care - you are saved. It's a sign of faith.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Ditto ^^^^ if you did not in the slightest believe in God..then why would you worry about such things? why would you care? Its kinda like if I had a falling away from my parents..if I was so angry..after a while I would feel like I don't care about them..yet if I hear something happened to them..and I felt a concern..or a some sort of worry about it? then I can only conclude that I still care for them. The fact that you care enough about wanting to be saved..the fact you desire to follow God and walk in his light is PERFECT proof of your belief in him! I challenge you to have a sincere desire for something you don't think exists take...oh I don't know...fairy creatures that live in the rainbows! if you believe in them you can get their blessing..if you don't a life of hardship will follow you! now you KNOW this isn't real..tell me how easy it is for you to desire these fake creatures blessings? You can't can you? you know its fake..you know its not true! but your desire for God..thats real man you believe..pray the Lord help you in your unbelief!

 

[RobertZ]

What you are saying is not possible, because if you still care - you are saved. It's a sign of faith.

Im not so sure about that, their are examples of people in the Bible who crossed over that line and then even though they were crying out to God and searching for him they were unable to find him.

--"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof; I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then they shall call upon Me, but I will not answer; they shall seek Me early, but they shall not find Me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: They would none of My counsel: they despised all My reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices." (Prov. 1:24-31).

 

[JimfromOhio]

What if a person was to harden their hearts up to the point that God no longer dealt with that person. Then lets say later on in life the person realizes that God is no longer speaking to them and desperately tries to get saved but cannot obtain salvation because God has let them go?

You don't know that and I don't know that. This is between God the Creator and each creatures (sinners).

 

[JimfromOhio]

Im not so sure about that, their are examples of people in the Bible who crossed over that line and then even though they were crying out to God and searching for him they were unable to find him.

--"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof; I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then they shall call upon Me, but I will not answer; they shall seek Me early, but they shall not find Me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: They would none of My counsel: they despised all My reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices." (Prov. 1:24-31).

Not quite.

God's divine circumstances can turn or don't turn people to God. People may despise it instead of embracing it. Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. When they don’t get it, they get angry or fustrated or bitter which leads to despise. Because they misjudge and failed to consider to the real purpose and scope of what is happening. That’s “hardening against God.”

One side of God's providence may be viewed as coming from God to bring out the BEST in us (See: Gen. 22:1-2, 15-18; Hebrews 11:17).

On the other side of God's providence allows (as He did with Job & others), Satan attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13-14).

 

[RobertZ]

You don't know that and I don't know that. This is between God the Creator and each creatures (sinners).

Well, I have suspected that it happened to me.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Well, I have suspected that it happened to me.

That's between you and God. Does not mean this will happen to others. We can't limit God that way.

 

[Tangible]

God has revealed much of himself in Holy Scripture, but he has a few cards in his hand that he holds very close to his chest.

One if these secrets of God is this: If the Father desires for all to be reconciled to him and be saved, if Jesus completely paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world for all time on the cross, if the Holy Spirit calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith, if all these things are true, then why are some saved and some are not?

We simply do not know. It is not revealed to us in scripture, and we dare not go beyond scripture to seek an answer.