Acceptance? Struggle with sexuality

[Bubblez1984]

I am agnostic, and currently questioning my beliefs around God/Christiantity. The following is written from my own experiences of Christians and the church so far in my life and the contradiction to my own values/beliefs. I'm quite new to looking at all this, so bear with me if any of my interpretations, particularly with reference to the bible are wrong

The big thing I'm struggling with is that of sexuality - I am a bisexual female, 27 years old, and every message I have ever got off a Christian in the past is that homo/bisexuality is wrong, disgusting, etc.

When I was at university, I was open and receptive to the idea of Christianity and tried going to church to find out what it was all about, but felt like I was frowned upon by other members of the church group for my lifestyle (none of them knew that I'm bisexual, it was around things like going clubbing, smoking, driving too fast, etc). I am at a point now, where I am searching and looking at my own spirituality and religious beliefs again - I agree with so much of the Christian faith, but there are certain things I have an issue with.

I am currently not engaging in homosexual activity as I am very much in love with a man, but I have enjoyed limited sexual activity with other women in the past, and it is something I would certainly indulge in in the future if, worst case scenario - me and my boyfriend ever broke up and I fell in love with a woman rather than a man. For me, the person I love and all their individual qualities are so much more important than gender - I struggle to see how that can be "wrong" or "sinful"?

Same with the idea of sex before marriage.........For me, sex is best as part of a healthy, loving relationship, but I don't believe that you have to be married. My partner and I have been together for over four years (been friends since we were 13), and have the greatest of respect for each other as well as love - I fail to see how sex in our relationship can be seen as "wrong" or "immoral".

However, I have total respect for those who chose to wait until marriage - I strongly believe in people as individuals - what is right for one person may not be right for another - I accept other people and their differences, but my own experience of Christianity is that, as a faith, there is no room for individualism.

I certainly believe in the Christian values of being a good person, caring for others, etc, but I can't get my head around why homo/bisexuality is wrong when it is committed in a loving way, and same for sex before marriage and masturbation for that matter - surely our bodies have been given to us to enjoy - I treat my body with respect sexually, and never do anything that will hurt myself or another emotionally, mentally or physically - I don't feel guilty (and never will) about having sex outside of marriage or maturbation, yet I feel like if I were to become a Christian I should feel guilty about these things?

I'd be worried that if I joined a church currently I'd be accepted given that I am in a relationship with a man, yet that same church would oust me if I ever entered into a relationship with a woman and refused to view it as a "sin" (I certainly do not see homosexuality as a sin, and never will). Surely the church doesn't discriminate on the basis of other factors such as age, gender and race, so why homosexuality?

For me (and this is where I might be wrong) the bible seems to contradict itself - how can homosexuality be sinful on one hand, when on the other Christians are supposed to love and accept and value all other human beings? Apologies if this is biblically wrong, just my interpretation.

I think the bottom line for me comes down to strongly believing in the Christian value of "Love thy neighbour as thyself", yet if this principle is applied, how can the Christian faith be so unaccepting of certain people?

 

[Faulty]

In the scriptures it describes those who are born again as sheep, and everyone else as goats. The sheep are those who have recognized their sin, be it alcoholism, or lust, or adultery, or theft, or even homosexuality, and turned to God alone for forgiveness of these sins and been reconciled and recreated with a new nature by God. Although sheep will still sin; it's no longer their lifestyle or their desire.

Now, there is a phenomenon in the world where goats like to dress up as sheep, and then judge other goats for acting like goats. These goats in sheep's clothing like to meet in churches and political functions, and tell other goats they are something gross because of their current openness in their sin, when the truth is that these other goats are the only of the two who are being honest with themselves.

These goats in sheep's clothing bring shame on the church, and lead others outside the church to believe that is what Christianity is, and by doing so, both of these groups on unbelievers deceive each other, and both will be rightly condemned when they are judged, for believing a lie, rather than the truth.

That said, even though you've run into these people and experienced their sin of self-righteousness, it doesn't justify yourself or your sins before God. Why are you going to church at all? Are you looking for a way out of your sin and to be reconciled to your Creator that your sin separates you from, or are you looking to be justified in your sin and to be called a "good person" because you're going to church?

 

[Aino]

OK first of all I want to remind you that a better way to knowing God is reading the Bible. Maybe start with Romans, it talks a lot about acceptance (it also has that one famous spot about homosexuality... well, maybe concentrate on other things in the letter first before judging the whole thing based on it). Matthew and John are also good if you want to learn about the way Jesus himself lived and what he taught. Christians are a good source as well since a lot of us tend to know the Bible and to have the Holy Spirit guiding us but none of us is infallible, so we can make a lot of mistakes and make unnecessary stumbling blocks for people who're interested in knowing our God. That's why you should take everything that I or any other christian say or do with a grain of salt and count more on the scriptures themselves. I'll try to explain the red thread of the faith and later go more specifically into some of your questions.

Being Christian means you have faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. He is the Messiah promised in the old testament for first the Jews, then the gentiles. Because he gave his life and ascended, we who believe in him will be resurrected as well. Those who do not believe, will perish, since they did not accept their Savior. That means, everyone will be judged for their deeds, BUT one is not saved for their good deeds, but for trusting the one that has the power save. Being Christian, you will first and foremost be allowed to trust that you have eternal salvation through faith in the one who died for you and will intercede for you in front of his father, the creator.

During your earthly walk you will have to see things like in a looking-glass (= not very clearly), so you'll never know everything when you're here. It's sometimes very frustrating, but in the end, you'll easily get to know at least enough to be saved and reading the Bible will give you the essentials quite thoroughly. And you can always comfort yourself that in Heaven things will clarify. You will understand how everything actually worked out, who God really is and who you really are as a child of God. In the meanwhile, you'll have the Holy Spirit guiding you with wisdom, spiritual gifts and supplying you with everything you need. And just to make it clear, everyone who accepts Jesus can receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, but let's not get too deep into that. Well, that's like the main point: God did everything really essential for us and all we can and need to do is accept it. Understanding this and the fact that everyone is equally a sinner will bring you to the point where you accept that everyone is equal in God's eyes. He'll see you as not a bit less worthy because of your orientation or much less your past then anyone else; you only need to give in to him to become Christian. It's terrible if Christians have told you or acted as if it were not that way.

For many of us becoming christian is a tough decision to make though, and the stumbling block is often the fact that you're a sinner one way or another: either you say that you're a good person and don't need salvation from anything or that you just don't want to accept it that yo can't become good enough to God with your own actions. Well, let me tell you, God who created you knows you to dust and will see any sin and bad attitude you've had. He knows you've sinned and you cannot escape it (although sin is not bad deeds only, it's - more generally - absence from God; if you don't spend any time with him you technically already sin). Well, christianity won't make you any better, you'll still sin but regardless you can have a god conscience because Jesus has paid the price of your sin already. Maybe you'll do more good, and maybe the Holy Spirit will convince you of some sins that you have, and maybe you'll stop deliberately going against his word in anything. In the end, you'll also make mistakes though and any amount of good a person can do is not enough, bear that in mind. Jesus - the only perfect being ever existed - is the key to being accepted by God, not what you do.

Well, now concerning relationships. Now remember, like I said, God will not want you to not become christian because for your past. He'll forgive every sin you've committed, including sexual ones. And even if you don't think you've sinned he'll want you to come to him and if he thinks it best he'll know how to convince you better then I do. Anyways, it's quite obvious that the Bible says that homosexual behavior (I did NOT say or mean homosexuals or homosexual desires in and of themselves!) is not acceptable. It also says, that a sexual relationship is mainly designed for one man and one woman that commit to living together for the rest of their lives. Now, there is no explanation to why it is as it is, and I cannot know for sure why it is that way. Maybe God wanted to make such committed relationships for the purpose of having and raising kids. Maybe he intended the couples to first and foremost to have an easier time in their life: the sexes complement each other in various ways (both are equals though!). I don't know, these are just guesses. Well, if you become Christian these principles will apply to you too. God will wish you to not do these things - having sex with someone you are not even planning to commit to or having a homosexual relationship. However he'll love you nevertheless if you cannot accept every one of his standards at once. It's enough for him if you just accept the sacrifice Jesus did for you and start living for him and not for your own pleasure. Each one of has their struggles and sometimes being christian feels really terrible. However, the price you get for it - an eternal life instead of eternal peril - is much much bigger.

Amen. That's what I came up with for now. Take it or leave it, ask if you want to. I hope I answered you questions in a way that helps you more then hurts.

 

[7angels]

i was asked is i believe all homosexuals go are going to hell. i replied no more then all heterosexuals are going to hell.

the bible teaches that homosexuals are going to hell along with drunkards and ect.. 1 cor 6:9-10. this verse is used a lot to mean if you are one of these people that you are going to hell. people forget that they themselves are not pure and this list is not all of them but only a few. verse 9 shows us that all unrighteous people are going to hell and that includes people that lie, cheat, not putting God first in their life is wrong also because that shows you have put something else before God which is an idol. people like to quote this verse to make themselves all holier than thou. people like to separate sin from the worst to the best but God teaches us that to him all sin is the same whether we murder or lie it is all the same to God.

many christians are hypocrites and it is tough finding a church that will love us as we are and not by what we do. believe me when i tell you that God knows our hearts and he works with us as we are. if God demanded us to remove all sin from our lives at one time we would all fail. but God works with us a little at a time and as we conquer one area God will have you confront another area. don't let people tell you that the life you are living is sinful and you should stop because if God came he could accuse us all of the same thing but he doesn't and if God doesn't see fit to convict you of a certain sin then why should i think i am better then God by confronting you with things i see. God in his own time will take care of what is wrong in your life when he believes it is time, and who am i to tell God when that time is.

we are told by God to love one another as ourselves and everything else we need to trust God for. please remember that we are not the judge but the servant of God and lets leave the judging to him who knows what is in the heart.

i hope this helps

btw aino you did a swell job of stating your point.

 

[aiki]

Same with the idea of sex before marriage.........For me, sex is best as part of a healthy, loving relationship, but I don't believe that you have to be married. My partner and I have been together for over four years (been friends since we were 13), and have the greatest of respect for each other as well as love - I fail to see how sex in our relationship can be seen as "wrong" or "immoral".

Here's the thing about being a Christian: what you think takes a back seat to what God thinks. His ways are supreme, not your own. Do you really think that you can be in a relationship with God and stand independent of Him in any area?

Sex in your relationship with your partner is wrong because it is not within the God-ordained confines of marriage. Sex is not bad; sex outside of God's established boundaries for it is. It is good that there is love and respect between you and your partner, but God demands that if you express that love and respect sexually, you do so as a couple formally committed to each other through marriage, monogamously and for life.

I certainly believe in the Christian values of being a good person, caring for others, etc, but I can't get my head around why homo/bisexuality is wrong when it is committed in a loving way, and same for sex before marriage and masturbation for that matter - surely our bodies have been given to us to enjoy - I treat my body with respect sexually, and never do anything that will hurt myself or another emotionally, mentally or physically - I don't feel guilty (and never will) about having sex outside of marriage or maturbation, yet I feel like if I were to become a Christian I should feel guilty about these things?

What you feel is of less importance than what God has commanded. He knows that sex within the boundaries He has established for it yield the greatest benefits and serve best the purposes for which He designed it. WHat's more, God has given us our bodies, first and foremost, so that we may glorify Him in and through them. He has made us capable of experiencing pleasure, but there are higher, more important purposes for our bodies to which the pursuit of physical pleasure must be subject. When you choose to disobey God and pursue sexual pleasure outside of His ordained boundaries, you preclude accomplishing any of those higher purposes for which God has made all of us.

I'd be worried that if I joined a church currently I'd be accepted given that I am in a relationship with a man, yet that same church would oust me if I ever entered into a relationship with a woman and refused to view it as a "sin" (I certainly do not see homosexuality as a sin, and never will). Surely the church doesn't discriminate on the basis of other factors such as age, gender and race, so why homosexuality?

Homosexuality has never been proven to be genetically-mandated like gender, race, or height are. And, unlike homosexuality, age, gender, and race are not things which the Bible declares to be abominations. If you refuse to ever see homosexuality as sin, then you have essentially said to God, "This far and no farther." God responds to such defiance and willfulness with the declaration that if you will not humble yourself and live in obedience to His will and way, you will be forever separated from Him in hell. God does not accommodate our rebellion in the slightest. If we will not bow to His will in love, we will suffer His wrath and judgment of our sin. Doubtless, this will stick badly in your craw. This is a very natural response. We are all rebellious and willful at heart, which is why it takes an act of God to bring us to full submission to His authority.

For me (and this is where I might be wrong) the bible seems to contradict itself - how can homosexuality be sinful on one hand, when on the other Christians are supposed to love and accept and value all other human beings? Apologies if this is biblically wrong, just my interpretation.

Loving others doesn't necessarily require that I love what they do.

I think the bottom line for me comes down to strongly believing in the Christian value of "Love thy neighbour as thyself", yet if this principle is applied, how can the Christian faith be so unaccepting of certain people?

Is it loving to encourage and accept an addict's abuse of drugs, or alcohol? What if a person likes to have sex with children? Should one accept this kind of behaviour in order to "love thy neighbor as thyself"? God says that our sin will bring us to eternal damnation. Is it loving to carry on with a sinner as though this isn't their eternal destiny? Is it loving to accept their sin as though it doesn't really matter? Just as accepting an addict's abuse of drugs or alcohol helps to enable their destructive abuse of these things, so accepting a homosexual's "orientation" enables them to continue in a lifestyle that will bring them to an eternity in hell. The truly loving thing to do with a homosexual is to tell her of the terrible jeopardy under which she stands because of her sin (which includes homosexuality) and to reject this and any sinful behaviour for the destructive thing that it is.

Real love, godly love, is informed and shaped by truth and holiness. Truth exposes the lies of sin and holiness rejects the foulness of sin.

Selah.

 

[Daniel25]

I am agnostic, and currently questioning my beliefs around God/Christiantity. The following is written from my own experiences of Christians and the church so far in my life and the contradiction to my own values/beliefs. I'm quite new to looking at all this, so bear with me if any of my interpretations, particularly with reference to the bible are wrong

The big thing I'm struggling with is that of sexuality - I am a bisexual female, 27 years old, and every message I have ever got off a Christian in the past is that homo/bisexuality is wrong, disgusting, etc.

When I was at university, I was open and receptive to the idea of Christianity and tried going to church to find out what it was all about, but felt like I was frowned upon by other members of the church group for my lifestyle (none of them knew that I'm bisexual, it was around things like going clubbing, smoking, driving too fast, etc). I am at a point now, where I am searching and looking at my own spirituality and religious beliefs again - I agree with so much of the Christian faith, but there are certain things I have an issue with.

I am currently not engaging in homosexual activity as I am very much in love with a man, but I have enjoyed limited sexual activity with other women in the past, and it is something I would certainly indulge in in the future if, worst case scenario - me and my boyfriend ever broke up and I fell in love with a woman rather than a man. For me, the person I love and all their individual qualities are so much more important than gender - I struggle to see how that can be "wrong" or "sinful"?

Same with the idea of sex before marriage.........For me, sex is best as part of a healthy, loving relationship, but I don't believe that you have to be married. My partner and I have been together for over four years (been friends since we were 13), and have the greatest of respect for each other as well as love - I fail to see how sex in our relationship can be seen as "wrong" or "immoral".

However, I have total respect for those who chose to wait until marriage - I strongly believe in people as individuals - what is right for one person may not be right for another - I accept other people and their differences, but my own experience of Christianity is that, as a faith, there is no room for individualism.

I certainly believe in the Christian values of being a good person, caring for others, etc, but I can't get my head around why homo/bisexuality is wrong when it is committed in a loving way, and same for sex before marriage and masturbation for that matter - surely our bodies have been given to us to enjoy - I treat my body with respect sexually, and never do anything that will hurt myself or another emotionally, mentally or physically - I don't feel guilty (and never will) about having sex outside of marriage or maturbation, yet I feel like if I were to become a Christian I should feel guilty about these things?

I'd be worried that if I joined a church currently I'd be accepted given that I am in a relationship with a man, yet that same church would oust me if I ever entered into a relationship with a woman and refused to view it as a "sin" (I certainly do not see homosexuality as a sin, and never will). Surely the church doesn't discriminate on the basis of other factors such as age, gender and race, so why homosexuality?

For me (and this is where I might be wrong) the bible seems to contradict itself - how can homosexuality be sinful on one hand, when on the other Christians are supposed to love and accept and value all other human beings? Apologies if this is biblically wrong, just my interpretation.

I think the bottom line for me comes down to strongly believing in the Christian value of "Love thy neighbour as thyself", yet if this principle is applied, how can the Christian faith be so unaccepting of certain people?

There are plenty of churches that will accept whatever perversion floats your boat, so long as posterior fills a pew and your coin rings in the collection dish. Try the Episcopals.


EDIT:

I kid, the Episcopals are very well off and don't need your money. Just someone under the age of 50 to attend.

 

[Bubblez1984]

Thanks for all the replies - really useful and interesting to hear perspectives on this, and it gives me a good starting point on exploring how I feel about all this, and many thanks for the biblical references which are a great starting point. I will try to reply more thoroughly late, I have to be at college soon.

I do believe in God, my searching is around religion/spirituality - my stance has always been that as long as I live morally, help others and be the best person I can be, then I see no reason why God cannot accept me. I just don't see the immorality behind homosexuality as long as it causes no harm to the self/others.

I am also an individualist - I believe very much in people as people, individuals where there is no hard and fast rule, and the difficulty is assimilating all of this. I even work in a role where the focus on the individual is paramount (Person Centred counsellor), and I work on valuing my clients as individuals, what is right for one person may not be right for another, it is up to my clients, no-one else.

Apologies, I'm not very good with this quote function!

Homosexuality has never been proven to be genetically-mandated like gender, race, or height are.

Is it loving to encourage and accept an addict's abuse of drugs, or alcohol? What if a person likes to have sex with children? Should one accept this kind of behaviour in order to "love thy neighbor as thyself"? God says that our sin will bring us to eternal damnation. Is it loving to carry on with a sinner as though this isn't their eternal destiny? Is it loving to accept their sin as though it doesn't really matter? Just as accepting an addict's abuse of drugs or alcohol helps to enable their destructive abuse of these things, so accepting a homosexual's "orientation" enables them to continue in a lifestyle that will bring them to an eternity in hell. The truly loving thing to do with a homosexual is to tell her of the terrible jeopardy under which she stands because of her sin (which includes homosexuality) and to reject this and any sinful behaviour for the destructive thing that it is.


Selah.

Equally, homosexuality has never been proved not to be genetic either..... there is masses of debate around nature/nurture in the context of how sexuality develops, however there are studies which do seem to suggest a genetic link, although this is far from conclusive - Dean Hamer, 1993 is a good example.

I understand the point you are trying to make in the paragraph about love they neighbour as thyself. I absolutely agree with you about not encouraging sex with children, substance abuse etc, however the BIG difference with all of these things as opposed to homosexuality is that all of the above involve hurting the self and/or another person/people, whilst homosexual acts (providing they are consensual of course) do not hurt the self or another in any way - I see no reason why consensual and loving homosexual sex cannot occur when it doesn't hurt anyone.

Thank you all for replying, as I said I will try to properly reply later - apologies, it's been a hectic week with a lot of juggling of commitments.

 

[Johnnz]

Don't see Christianity as a set of rules.

As the Creator, God has designed us to function best in certain ways and has given us very real capacities to do so. Sex is an example. Sex was designed to be an intimate, physical, very pleasurable part of relationship with another. Many of its pleasures are there whether or not we fully follow the pattern.

It is the Christian understanding of God and his designs for humanity that guide our values and lifestyle. Any value is therefore predicated on our understanding of God. As is yours. You have a 'theology', but is it an accurate one? That is the real issue here.

John
NZ

 

[razeontherock]

I think the bottom line for me comes down to strongly believing in the Christian value of "Love thy neighbour as thyself", yet if this principle is applied, how can the Christian faith be so unaccepting of certain people?

There is no doubt that sexuality is the single most challenging aspect of Christianity for many. The fact is, Jesus doesn't merely "accept" sinners, but actually died for us, to reconcile us to God.

So the first thing is to remove the false idea that the Faith is not accepting of certain people.

Next is coming to terms with what sin is, and agreeing with God about that. That's what the word "confessing" is all about, and forgiveness. (1 John 1:9)

I am of the opinion (and experience) that God will absolutely work with whatever part of us we give Him. From that position, it is largely up to Him, to craft us into what He wants us to be. I do think we have a part in the process, but a minor, supporting role.

 

[hedrick]

I do believe in God, my searching is around religion/spirituality - my stance has always been that as long as I live morally, help others and be the best person I can be, then I see no reason why God cannot accept me. I just don't see the immorality behind homosexuality as long as it causes no harm to the self/others.

I actually agree with you on this particular matter, but there are issues with the way you justify it.
People do at times make improper decisions because they get carried away, either with temporary emotion, or even as a culture – I'm sure you can think of examples of dysfunctional cultures. Christianity takes the position that God has given us certain principles that are true even if for the moment we don't understand why. He is in a position to understand more than we do, after all.

I mean, even basic things like loving your enemies are not self-evident. I've heard arguments that Christianity is immoral because it lets people get away with immorality because it's too forgiving. I'm just not sure that we can rely on our judgement of harm as always being right. Governments are quite adept at arguing that they need all kinds of control "for our own good." There are advantages to the American principle that some rights are given to us by God, and are not subject to government views of "our own good." As the American religious consensus breaks down, I think the basis for the Bill of Rights does as well. I hope it survives, but current evidence isn't encouraging.

I am also an individualist - I believe very much in people as people, individuals where there is no hard and fast rule, and the difficulty is assimilating all of this. I even work in a role where the focus on the individual is paramount (Person Centred counsellor), and I work on valuing my clients as individuals, what is right for one person may not be right for another, it is up to my clients, no-one else.

But this is a very specific context. If I were counseling people from a variety of backgrounds, I would do what you describe. However the fact that I accept every client's religion when working with him doesn't mean that they are all equally true in fact. While there are plenty of shared values, there are also values that aren't shared, and they can't all be true. In some cases the differences matter.

 

[WilliamB]

Same with the idea of sex before marriage.........For me, sex is best as part of a healthy, loving relationship, but I don't believe that you have to be married. My partner and I have been together for over four years (been friends since we were 13), and have the greatest of respect for each other as well as love - I fail to see how sex in our relationship can be seen as "wrong" or "immoral".

Sex before marriage is a man made term and is found nowhere in scripture.

However, I have total respect for those who chose to wait until marriage - I strongly believe in people as individuals - what is right for one person may not be right

Agreed!

I think the bottom line for me comes down to strongly believing in the Christian value of "Love thy neighbour as thyself", yet if this principle is applied, how can the Christian faith be so unaccepting of certain people?

Because they are not truly followers of Christ. They follow man made traditions and laws that skew the scriptures to fit their own personal prejudices. Jesus NEVER mentioned homosexuality and welcomes ALL who ask. Most of these people live and teach a dual covenant message meaning they claim to be saved by faith through grace (new covenant) but with the same tounge, will judge others based on the old covenant. (the law). True followers of Christ are free from the law and thus free to operate in righteousness. Righteousness is exactly as you said, love your neighbor as you love yourself.


34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”. Matthew 34-40

Just follow these two commandments in your day to day life and you will cover all the laws and all the prophets. Praise God Christ's yoke is light.