Abused texts of Scripture: What is your example?

[BNR32FAN]

If strayed means falling into sin, he could be a sinner of true faith who needs to be restored.

If strayed means abandoning belief, his faith was counterfeit.

You keep saying that even tho I keep pointing out that it doesn’t make any sense.

If his faith was counterfeit how does turning back to a counterfeit faith save his soul from death?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are not the only one who ever had struggled with these truthes; many other Christians from early times on to present day have. It was because of the misunderstandings of the nature of God in respect to the Trinity and the dual nature of Christ that further explanation was needed and a third, more comprehensive creed was drafted by the Church, known primarily as the Athanasian Creed. Here are a couple excerpts that show that from the early times of the Church, it was accepted that one can not separate the two natures; human and divine are one Christ, Christ is not a grafting together of the two.

His humanity and divinity are one Lord Jesus Christ; if Mary is not the mother of Jesus, God, then neither can she be the mother of the human Jesus. If she is the mother of Jesus the human man, she therefore, is Mother of God due to the inseparable combining of both natures into one being.

From the Athanasian Creed:

Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ: one, however, not by the conversion of the divinity into flesh, but by the assumption of the humanity into God; one altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.​

​

For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ,​

​

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the living and the dead.​

I actually got her to agree that Jesus has always been God and that He was never not God. This would mean that He was God while He was being born and thus Mary gave birth to God, hence Theotokos.

 

[RileyG]

I actually got her to agree that Jesus has always been God and that He was never not God. This would mean that He was God while He was being born and thus Mary gave birth to God, hence Theotokos.

Christians as a whole view her as the Theotokos. Even if they don’t venerate or talk about her much. It’s simply misunderstood.

Just my opinion.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are not the only one who ever had struggled with these truthes; many other Christians from early times on to present day have. It was because of the misunderstandings of the nature of God in respect to the Trinity and the dual nature of Christ that further explanation was needed and a third, more comprehensive creed was drafted by the Church, known primarily as the Athanasian Creed. Here are a couple excerpts that show that from the early times of the Church, it was accepted that one can not separate the two natures; human and divine are one Christ, Christ is not a grafting together of the two.

His humanity and divinity are one Lord Jesus Christ; if Mary is not the mother of Jesus, God, then neither can she be the mother of the human Jesus. If she is the mother of Jesus the human man, she therefore, is Mother of God due to the inseparable combining of both natures into one being.

From the Athanasian Creed:

Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ: one, however, not by the conversion of the divinity into flesh, but by the assumption of the humanity into God; one altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.​

​

For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ,​

​

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the living and the dead.​

There's a promise in the scripture that the Holy Spirit will teach you all things John 14:26, we don't need "the church" meaning the RCC to tell one what to believe or think, which laws can be changed on their authority over God’s. I prefer we stick to the scriptures to lead, as that is what we are told Psa 119:105 and the Holy Spirit will never go away from God’s Word. Isa 8:20

This has been talked to death best to get back to the topic and agree to disagree.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I actually got her to agree that Jesus has always been God

Not an argument I ever made, that Jesus has not always been God. This is not an honest statement.

 

[jas3]

There's a promise in the scripture that the Holy Spirit will teach you all things John 14:26, we don't need "the Chruch" whoever that is to tell one what to believe or think.

That's an excellent example for the thread, since that promise can't negate Christ's promise to build the Church in Matt. 16:18, or the Church being "the pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim. 3:15, or the instruction to be subject to Church leadership in Heb. 13:17, or the various descriptions of the Church as the Body of Christ (Col. 1:18,24, etc.)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's an excellent example for the thread, since that promise can't negate Christ's promise to build the Church in Matt. 16:18, or the Church being "the pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim. 3:15, or the instruction to be subject to Church leadership in Heb. 13:17, or the various descriptions of the Church as the Body of Christ (Col. 1:18,24, etc.)

I agree with all of these scriptures, which doesn’t delete this promise John 14:26

We need to define the church. God does have a church I believe and we are told the characteristics of His church Rev 12:17 Rev 14:12 which is not the one most go to for their doctrine, instead of following Gods Word which is the path we are told to follow Psa 119:105

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

This is like a game of dodge ball. You wonder why peoples patience is running a bit thin. Various respected members asked you your thoughts/beliefs regarding Jesus' humanity and in particular His divinity at the time of his birth (take it back to His conception). Instead, you divert and deflect. We are not discussing the Blessed Virgin Mary's humanity; that is not in question; the question is regarding your beliefs regarding to the dual nature of Jesus Christ.

Bottom line is if He is conceived and born with both natures, Mary can not be mother to half a baby.

Instead of answering questions with questions; maybe try and be less of a politician and answer with a straight answer.

I will try and make this as simple as possible:

Was Jesus the Christ both Human and Divine at the moment of His concepting and birth?

Please answer the question.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Is. 7:14

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Is. 7:14

"God with us.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And that is the issue. . .keeping in mind that the least of these are specifically stated as Christ's brethren.
Who are his brethren. . .those in Christ by faith in him.

Do I have to have the hungry undergo a religious examination before I help them?

That's pretty silly.

The least of these are the least of these. The Lord Christ does not make a distinction between the believing and the nonbelieving poor. Neither did the Holy Apostles.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rturner76]

• Ephisians 2:8-9
• "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast".
  
  
• I have seen am uncountable number of various Protestants take this verse and eliminate "through faith," saying it is through grace alone and faith requires no response from us.
• While it is true that we are given grace which requires no works as merit, the measure of our faith is made known by our actions. That doesn't mean specific works will be your saving grace but it is a way to measure one's faith. Not in that A, B, and C actions prove that you have faith but is there any evidence that we have faith? everyone's walk is different. We all have different thing that we struggle with but if we look to this and other Apostles, we learn that if you show me your works, I will show you your faith. No specific work and no specific measure but is one making an effort to obey as they are able. It's not merit that we need but we need to show that we are followers.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[David Lamb]

• Ephisians 2:8-9
• "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast".
  
  
• I have seen am uncountable number of various Protestants take this verse and eliminate "through faith," saying it is through grace alone and faith requires no response from us.
• While it is true that we are given grace which requires no works as merit, the measure of our faith is made known by our actions. That doesn't mean specific works will be your saving grace but it is a way to measure one's faith. Not in that A, B, and C actions prove that you have faith but is there any evidence that we have faith? everyone's walk is different. We all have different thing that we struggle with but if we look to this and other Apostles, we learn that if you show me your works, I will show you your faith. No specific work and no specific measure but is one making an effort to obey as they are able. It's not merit that we need but we need to show that we are followers.

I have not come across anybody who believes what you suggest - that belief/faith is unnecessary. Salvation is all of God's grace, every part of it, including the faith with which we believe. There is nothing any Christian can boast in. He/she cannot say, "I was clever/sensible/godly enough to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[concretecamper]

There's a promise in the scripture that the Holy Spirit will teach you all things John 14:26, we don't need "the church" meaning the RCC to tell one what to believe or think,

That promise wasn't given to you or I, it was given to the Apostles (the Church)

You claim something that is not yours, and dismiss that to which the promise was given. How ironic.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That promise wasn't given to you or I, it was given to the Apostles (the Church)

You claim something that is not yours, and dismiss that to which the promise was given. How ironic.

I disagree, if you don't think the Holy Spirit teaches you things, its not what I believe or what the scriptures teach or my experience.

I would sure hate to rely on "the church" and it turns out to be the wrong one. It's why it's important we understand the scriptures for ourselves through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who teaches "you" all things that God said (His Word). The scripture goes on to reveal how we receive His Spirit like Luke 11:13 John14:15-18 Acts 5:32 if we hear Him Heb 3:7-8

Rev 17 talks about the mother of harlots which means she has daughters which are the false churches. God gives everyone the opportunity to hear His voice and follow Him, speaking to us through His Word Psa 119:105 and never going away from it. Isa 8:20

 

[concretecamper]

I would sure hate to reply on "the church" and it turns out to be the wrong one.

Well, for some reason, Jesus set up His Church for the Salvation Souls. If you want to take Him to task for doing so, be my guest.

There is only 1, all the others are, as you say, the "wrong one"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, for some reason, Jesus set up His Church for the Salvation Souls. If you want to take Him to task for doing so, be my guest.

There is only 1, all the others are, as you say, the "wrong one"

I do believe God has a Church, but according to scripture, its a remnant- small remainder of the original- who keep God's commandments Rev 12:17 Rev 14:12 - His version Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18 Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 but there is another church who changed God's times and law Dan 7:25 we are warned about, its important we are part of the right church, but we can individually guided by the Holy Spirit and God's Word so we are not deceived like scripture says the majority will be, perhaps those following a church instead of God's Word which is to be the path we are to be guided Psa 119:105 and going outside is danger Isa 8:20

 

[tall73]

Rev 17 talks about the mother of harlots which means she has daughters which are the false churches. God gives everyone the opportunity to hear His voice and follow Him, speaking to us through His Word Psa 119:105 and never going away from it. Isa 8:20

Thank you for highlighting how you view other churches.

 

[Clare73]

Do I have to have the hungry undergo a religious examination before I help them?

That's pretty silly.

The least of these are the least of these. The Lord Christ does not make a distinction between the believing and the nonbelieving poor. Neither did the Holy Apostles.

But Christ does distinguish between the believing and the non-believing among all mankind (Jn 3:18).

The problem is we don't which are the sheep and which are the goats, so we are to preach and administer to all mankind.

 

[rturner76]

I have not come across anybody who believes what you suggest - that belief/faith is unnecessary. Salvation is all of God's grace, every part of it, including the faith with which we believe. There is nothing any Christian can boast in. He/she cannot say, "I was clever/sensible/godly enough to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

I think I didn't convey what I meant properly. What I was trying to convey was that from the "faith alone through grace alone" standpoint, the writings of St James are often disregarded when he states that "faith without works is dead." Many people are confused about that verse. They conclude that there is no need for any works at all. That is a bit extreme when considering the book of Saint James. He doesn't say that works are your way into heaven on their own through merit but by their fruits you will know them.

16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Matthew 7:16-17. It's not that we are saved by our merits but our works are the evidence of our faith. If someone claims to have faith because they were baptized but continued in their sinful ways, how valid is their faith?

James 2:24
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Works are not the cause of our salvation but they are the evidence.
Romans 2:13 Therefore it is good to do it because works are evidence of what one has faith in. Without works, God would never be sure.

So it is grace through faith, however works are the evidence of our faith. That doesn't mean that ABC works are a requirement but at the heart of the matter is are you making an effort or still living in your old ways?

Does that make any sense?

 

[ViaCrucis]

But Christ does distinguish between the believing and the non-believing among all mankind (Jn 3:18).

That text has nothing to do with how to treat the poor or the hungry.

The problem is we don't which are the sheep and which are the goats, so we are to preach and administer to all mankind.

And in the context of how we are to obey the commandment to love our neighbor it doesn't matter.

-CryptoLutheran